A question on map size and location names

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Nothing wrong with modeling the impact of surprise via shock.

Sure- at the start of a scenario, where you know the other guy is going to be in a position to be surprised, and in a situation where the surprise covers the whole map. As an aside, it's also better as a negative effect to the defender, so that their units freeze (as units do when surprised) rather than as a bonus for the attacker.

Or if there is a cease fire, followed by a theater option to open fire.

Here, the shock hits on turn 67. At this point all bets are off as to where the scenario is at. Has France actually been knocked out? Did the Germans go ahead and invade the UK? Are there still Allied troops in Norway? Are the Italians fighting Greece?

If any of these fronts are active, they'll be hit by shock.

Agreed on that. You can't do it on a Europe-wide topic - yet.

Then there's the contention that the Italians were defeated in Operation Compass because of surprise. The Italians had advanced to these positions less than two months previously and had spent those two months setting up to defend them- they were, at least notionally, preparing for a British attack.

I would suggest that the reason for the Italian defeat in Operation Compass was that the Italian army in Libya in 1940 was a complete mess for reasons too numerous to list, to the point that the units of 10th Army had almost no combat value whatsoever. "Surprise" is insufficient reason to explain why it was decisively routed in a matter of days and annihilated in a few weeks by a force which it outnumbered more than four to one.

Right: They had advanced to those positions - over CW opposition. Tough to do if they have no combat value.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Or if there is a cease fire, followed by a theater option to open fire.

Perhaps- it would depend on the situation. Trouble is one cannot, as the designer, know what the situation will be on a given turn.

Agreed on that. You can't do it on a Europe-wide topic - yet.

If you're talking about future enhancements to shock, one would want it on a formation or perhaps an icon colour basis. For example, if it's late May 1940 one would want the BEF to be able to engage in fairly fluid and decisive movements once it detached itself from the French High Command, but for the French units themselves to be much more inflexible and prone to falling into reorganisation.

Then, too, if one is playing a "War in Europe" scenario, a shock penalty for Soviet units would be one option (although not the only one), but this shouldn't affect any ongoing fighting by other Allied troops.

Right: They had advanced to those positions - over CW opposition. Tough to do if they have no combat value.

My understanding is that the Western Desert Force made no attempt to hold the frontier, but only engaged in harassing actions to slow the advance and dismantle the road (on the assumption that it would proceed to the Delta). The supposed need to repair the coast road was one of the reasons Graziani gave for halting at Sidi Barrani, less than a third of the way to the main British position at Matruh. There was very little serious fighting but what there was cost the Italians ten times the casualties taken by the British.

I think that at the time war plans were made, the decision not to hold at the frontier made sense, as the strength and effectiveness of the Italian forces in Libya could not be known. In hindsight its doubtful if the Italians could have prevailed against WDF if a stand actually had been made, but likely the result would have been less decisive as the Italians would have had the initiative and could dictate when the battle started- and could call it off if it proved disastrous for them.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Perhaps- it would depend on the situation. Trouble is one cannot, as the designer, know what the situation will be on a given turn.

A theater option leaves it up to the player.

If you're talking about future enhancements to shock, one would want it on a formation or perhaps an icon colour basis. For example, if it's late May 1940 one would want the BEF to be able to engage in fairly fluid and decisive movements once it detached itself from the French High Command, but for the French units themselves to be much more inflexible and prone to falling into reorganisation.

Then, too, if one is playing a "War in Europe" scenario, a shock penalty for Soviet units would be one option (although not the only one), but this shouldn't affect any ongoing fighting by other Allied troops.

One suggestion was to have the ability to divvy the map up into sections, each with its own parameters.

My understanding is that the Western Desert Force made no attempt to hold the frontier, but only engaged in harassing actions to slow the advance and dismantle the road (on the assumption that it would proceed to the Delta). The supposed need to repair the coast road was one of the reasons Graziani gave for halting at Sidi Barrani, less than a third of the way to the main British position at Matruh. There was very little serious fighting but what there was cost the Italians ten times the casualties taken by the British.

I think that at the time war plans were made, the decision not to hold at the frontier made sense, as the strength and effectiveness of the Italian forces in Libya could not be known. In hindsight its doubtful if the Italians could have prevailed against WDF if a stand actually had been made, but likely the result would have been less decisive as the Italians would have had the initiative and could dictate when the battle started- and could call it off if it proved disastrous for them.

That's all supposition, of course. The only fact we know is that they advanced. And it discounts the noose they put themselves in, coupled with their very poor deployments, that allowed the surprise of the raid to catch them infiltrated from every direction and cutoff from supply.

This is sort of like using the very poor performance of the French and British back in France in 1940 to argue that they should have no combat value. But, that would, similarly, discount the impact of the German thrust through the Ardennes had, coupled with the impact of Blitzkrieg in general.