Spotting with Italian Fleet & Transports

[Dorky8]

Just started my first game. The guys spotting outside the Med with Italian ships & transports (before entry). What a joke.

[Marcinos1985]

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

Just started my first game. The guys spotting outside the Med with Italian ships & transports (before entry). What a joke.

Block transition squares next to Gibraltar, and your opponent will have at most 2 "scouts".
Later send them to the bottom.

[Dorky8]

Thank You. Much appreciated.

Im sorry but I shouldn't have to block Italian transports (ships) from leaving the Med before entry. He gets two on the first turn anyway. Its a BS move because the transports cant be attacked but can spot, they are invincible recons. I'm sure they are garrisons so he doesn't care if he loses them.

So this is actually part of the game? Really?

[Helsingor]

Hi Dorky8,
I don’t have a problem with the Italians slipping ships or units through Gib while neutral. It’s a gambit that has its own risks and rewards built in. However, I agree that using them to spot Allied ships seems an abuse of the system.
I have a response that is both fun and, I would argue, historically plausible. In a recent game, when I saw this gambit developing, I deliberately forced an.early Italian DOW by moving naval units near Syracuse (per the v. 1.07 changes to the game scripts).
It’s fun because Italy is quite vulnerable to an early carrier strike and you can probably hurt Italy’s NM. You may even have an opportunity for an amphib landing. It also seems to be a proportional response to someone trying to game the system,
I think it’s always historically plausible: if Britain and France saw a “neutral” Italy making such provocative moves, they might feel empowered to respond by provoking a war in the Med on their terms.

[Aussiematto]

Wait until an opponent uses Jap destroyers to rescue the italian destroyer in the Indian ocean ....

But, yes, there needs to be a penalty ... probably loss of Italian morale? Or US 3-5% mobilisation? As long as the italian destroyer in the Indian ocean can choose where to deploy ...

[Dorky8]

Thanks guys.

I'm very surprised there aren't limitations on players running transports, that aren't at war, around the oceans as recons. Is there limitations on Navy strength per ocean? That is Japanese in Atlantic, Germans/Italians in Pacific or large Brit/US in either.

[EarlyDoors]

I think its fine - its all part of the narrative - where are they going? what are they up to? can i initiate a DoW ? One of the most overlooked parts of Invasions from Malaya to Normandy is deception and not wanting to initiate contact for fear of international reaction

[Marcinos1985]

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

Thanks guys.

I'm very surprised there aren't limitations on players running transports, that aren't at war, around the oceans as recons. Is there limitations on Navy strength per ocean? That is Japanese in Atlantic, Germans/Italians in Pacific or large Brit/US in either.

There are no such limits, but in case of Japan, if it goes to Atlantic, US gets mobilization rise. Others may move freely, except Panamerican zone or 'Midway rule'.

Naval aspect is probably SC's games weaker point, but it would have to be complicated more to work so-so. It is caused maybe by engine limitations? What works on land, doesn't on sea.

[Dorky8]

Yeah SC's Naval not the best. Great game tho. That's why I've stayed with WiE, like the scale better also.

[Platoonist]

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

Thanks guys.

I'm very surprised there aren't limitations on players running transports, that aren't at war, around the oceans as recons. Is there limitations on Navy strength per ocean? That is Japanese in Atlantic, Germans/Italians in Pacific or large Brit/US in either.

I think part the naval simulation problem in the game now is in the naval supply rules. As long as a naval unit doesn't cruise, engage in combat or raid a convoy lane it can stay at sea indefinitely. However, in reality even if you are not expending naval ammunition, you are always expending something of finite quality at sea. Oil, food, consumables, major maintenance, the crew's patience. It seems this would be especially true of a transport unit with all those additional mouths aboard to feed and accommodate.

I always thought one possible solution might be for a naval unit to start randomly losing strength points if it continues to stay a sea out of port supply range beyond a certain point in time, even if it doesn't engage in combat.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

I think part the naval simulation problem in the game now is in the naval supply rules. As long as a naval unit doesn't cruise, engage in combat or raid a convoy lane it can stay at sea indefinitely. However, in reality even if you are not expending naval ammunition, you are always expending something of finite quality at sea. Oil, food, consumables, major maintenance, the crew's patience. It seems this would be especially true of a transport unit with all those additional mouths aboard to feed and accommodate.

I always thought one possible solution might be for a naval unit to start randomly losing strength points if it continues to stay a sea out of port supply range beyond a certain point in time, even if it doesn't engage in combat.

Hi Platoonist,

This is of course not wrong, and would be more realistic, however I believe when we had something like this in the game way back when, it can become tedious to circle back to port for supply.

It is always a balance between realism and game play etc.

Hubert

[LoneRunner]

Thanks for the explanation Hubert. Yes, constantly circling your fleet back to port would be a pain, especially for the UK. Even though it's not realistic, I'm glad that fix was made.

Could an update be made where neutral fleets can not spot or block? That would solve the misuse of neutral fleets and wouldn't seem to affect play balance.

[Hubert Cater]

For blocking, unless we are talking about something different, I believe naval units should be able to pass through each other, and in this case Neutral naval units should not inflict any possible damage for doing so.

Spotting is a bit tricky as you cannot share a hex space, so attempting to end on a hex where another hidden naval unit is located unfortunately cannot change what would then be spotted, and passing through a hidden enemy naval unit should arguably reveal what is located there, as should probably ending your move next to a hidden enemy naval unit despite being neutral. I see the point though, let us think about this.

[amandkm]

Hubert, Blocking can occur at the exit to the Mediterranean. If the allies plop ships on both hexes, the Italians can't leave the Med.

[Dorky8]

The Axis have the first turn and can immediately send two garrisons to the Atlantic before the Allies can block

[LoneRunner]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Spotting is a bit tricky as you cannot share a hex space, so attempting to end on a hex where another hidden naval unit is located unfortunately cannot change what would then be spotted, and passing through a hidden enemy naval unit should arguably reveal what is located there, as should probably ending your move next to a hidden enemy naval unit despite being neutral. I see the point though, let us think about this.

Good point Hubert. Spotting is more tricky than I originally thought. For example, Japan is at war with China but at peace with the rest of the allies. Are their fleets considered neutral?

Perhaps the rule could be that fleets cannot spot naval units unless the owner of the fleet is at war with that unit. A neutral fleet passing through or ending a turn next to a naval unit should not reveal the unit. If a neutral naval unit tries to end the turn on a naval unit, it gets bumped back, much like a land unit attempting to enter a hidden unit hex. The hidden naval unit gets revealed but with minimal information, maybe a blank unit with nationality.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

I'd argue for even more spotting. Japs had Pearl Harbor measured to the square inch.

[Dorky8]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

I'd argue for even more spotting. Japs had Pearl Harbor measured to the square inch.

True we weren't at war with Japan prior to Dec 7th so they actually did the spotting by running troops transports around the island, hey we couldn't sink them we weren't at war. crazy right

[:D]

You are correct JJ the Naval component could use some more spotting, probably not Italian troop transports.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Wait until you play upper level players. They got supply values memorized, and can calculate the quadratic equation in their sleep.

Gotta have some fun. Get some games under your ammo belt, welcome to the party.