War Plan Orange

[Q-Ball]

I've played some version of this game since the original UV came out, but I never bought or tried War Plan Orange. The forum is still there and there was activity when it first came out, but seems like it never really caught on, and the game is basically dead.

Anyone here play it? Why do you think it died? Maybe because it was not historical but more hypothetical, or just the lack of airpower kind of killed the concept?

I can only imagine what this engine is like with only limited airplanes, it sure would make surprise invasions easier.....

[mind_messing]

Bit of a niche setting, in an already niche genre (consider how many wargames are Eurocentric...)

Plus, from what I've seen WPO was quite unforgiving compared to AE. Once one side gets the naval ascendancy it was hard to come back from.

AE tends to balance that out with a much more formidable naval component.

[btd64]

I played it a bit. I found it to be boring after a while. Mostly because it was kinda like looking for a needle in a haystack, since during the period there weren't many aircraft for navalsearch....GP

[Ian R]

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

I’m with you on that, I always loved the naval component of the war in the Mediterranean. I vaguely remember a mod project on AE (or was it still WITP ?), but it got stuck. I think the main problem might be the land combat engine - while it may be adequate for the land component of the war in the Pacific, the North African Desert campaign was very much a war of movement.

[Mundy]

If you love pre-dreds, you'll get them in spades here.

I always had fun with it. Getting opponents was an issue for me.

[fcooke]

Tangent - I forget the name of the game but the Hiryu kicked the bottom out of a SAG. I then looked at her from the other side and it turned out she mounted 14" guns. I actually called tech support but they told me no updates/fixes were going to be coming. You have to like all the support Matrix gives their games.

Now I need to find the name of that game. Also have a craving to play Steel Panthers and the various Close Combat titles now. Time to figure out DosBox.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

If memory serves, somebody did build a new scenario, new map, everything for the Med many years ago, back when WITP came out. I am nearly certain that's correct. Anyone else recall that?

At first it was really cool to model the Regia Marina and all the Italian/German planes in a sandbox with the Royal Navy. IIRC, the mod ran aground in BETA form because a) the Italian Navy would get smacked, and/or b) the land component was too abstracted to really work

I think the problem using this engine for the Med is that the Med was really focused in getting supplies and material to North Africa, and preventing the Axis from doing exactly that. I think it would be very hard to create and balance the same priorities for the Axis player. And the WITP-AE land model would just not work in the Western Desert, it would be a disaster.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

I’m with you on that, I always loved the naval component of the war in the Mediterranean. I vaguely remember a mod project on AE (or was it still WITP ?), but it got stuck. I think the main problem might be the land combat engine - while it may be adequate for the land component of the war in the Pacific, the North African Desert campaign was very much a war of movement.

Actually a much bigger problem for a Mediterranean version of AE is the hex range. For land combat purposes the hex size should be reduced to 20 statute miles. That would give you a 3-4 hex space between the sea and the Quattara Depression. Bigger sized hexes would not permit any land flanking possibilities.

However, if the hex size is 20 statute miles, that creates naval combat problems for the main guns of the battleships at times exchanged fire at ranges beyond 20 statute miles. The AE system does not allow for combat to extend over two adjacent hexes simultaneously.

Alfred

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: btd64

I played it a bit. I found it to be boring after a while. Mostly because it was kinda like looking for a needle in a haystack, since during the period there weren't many aircraft for navalsearch....GP

I can see that.....probably big naval battles happened around landing sites in WPO. The Pacific Ocean is a very big haystack....

Without air operations, I imagine alot of turns went by with....nothing going on

[Lokasenna]

I tried it a number of years ago when it went on fall sale. I wanted to play a game that was more in the surface combat realm.

Unfortunately, the UI improvements of AE made my experience with WPO...not great. I didn't do more than 1 turn. Solely because of the UI. If it were WPO scenario in the AE engine? Yeah, I'd play that.

[CV10]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
If it were WPO scenario in the AE engine? Yeah, I'd play that.

In theory, it would be possible to create a WPO-style scenario with the scenario editor if one spent enough time replacing all of the ships, aircraft, air groups, LCUs, and leaders, and came up with an acceptable timeline to fit in with the game dates (So saying that 1942 would correspond to 1921, 1943 to 1922).

But it would require an immense amount of work and probably run into a number of issues.

[LeeChard]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I tried it a number of years ago when it went on fall sale. I wanted to play a game that was more in the surface combat realm.

Unfortunately, the UI improvements of AE made my experience with WPO...not great. I didn't do more than 1 turn. Solely because of the UI. If it were WPO scenario in the AE engine? Yeah, I'd play that.

My experience too. I seem to recall a lack of waypoints a problem for me.

[inqistor]

I bought War Plan Orange together with WitP. It is quite similar game, but with atrocious ranges for most of submarines, and planes, so you can't make any viable search plan. It's like playing WitP blindly.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

If memory serves, somebody did build a new scenario, new map, everything for the Med many years ago, back when WITP came out. I am nearly certain that's correct. Anyone else recall that?

At first it was really cool to model the Regia Marina and all the Italian/German planes in a sandbox with the Royal Navy. IIRC, the mod ran aground in BETA form because a) the Italian Navy would get smacked, and/or b) the land component was too abstracted to really work

I think the problem using this engine for the Med is that the Med was really focused in getting supplies and material to North Africa, and preventing the Axis from doing exactly that. I think it would be very hard to create and balance the same priorities for the Axis player. And the WITP-AE land model would just not work in the Western Desert, it would be a disaster.

Yeah, there was Mediterranean MOD for WITP, but there was active guy in mod forum here, who was making whole Western Front. I recall he run out of slots for German Divisions, because of too many different devices.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

I’m with you on that, I always loved the naval component of the war in the Mediterranean. I vaguely remember a mod project on AE (or was it still WITP ?), but it got stuck. I think the main problem might be the land combat engine - while it may be adequate for the land component of the war in the Pacific, the North African Desert campaign was very much a war of movement.

Actually a much bigger problem for a Mediterranean version of AE is the hex range. For land combat purposes the hex size should be reduced to 20 statute miles. That would give you a 3-4 hex space between the sea and the Quattara Depression. Bigger sized hexes would not permit any land flanking possibilities.

However, if the hex size is 20 statute miles, that creates naval combat problems for the main guns of the battleships at times exchanged fire at ranges beyond 20 statute miles. The AE system does not allow for combat to extend over two adjacent hexes simultaneously.

Alfred

All that points to GG's west front/east front II system with one week turns, and a very different naval/naval- air module based on on those 7 day turns.

Ironically, returning to the old starting point of DOS pacwar, where TFs moved in to sea spaces abstractly defined by the paths between bases, and developing that in a different direction from WITP, would more likely result in a workable system - and one more playable with respect to time and detail.

[Kull]

Fremen's WitM v1.2b (and the 1.22b update) is still available at Spooky's Site. And yes, it only works with the original WitP (not AE).

[JeffroK]

WPO needs an AE update.

Too many are used to long ranging aircraft and see it as a slow game.

Given a map facelift, LCU/Ships/Aircraft reviewed and tidied up leaves a game with lots of surprises. CR's picket lines come into vogue as you need something to provide warning, there are a lot of approaches to be covered. You get an inkling about why some obsolete tactics were used at the start of the Big war.

[LeeChard]

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

WPO needs an AE update.

Too many are used to long ranging aircraft and see it as a slow game.

Given a map facelift, LCU/Ships/Aircraft reviewed and tidied up leaves a game with lots of surprises. CR's picket lines come into vogue as you need something to provide warning, there are a lot of approaches to be covered. You get an inkling about why some obsolete tactics were used at the start of the Big war.

+1 [:)]

[CV10]

ORIGINAL: LeeChard

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

WPO needs an AE update.

Too many are used to long ranging aircraft and see it as a slow game.

Given a map facelift, LCU/Ships/Aircraft reviewed and tidied up leaves a game with lots of surprises. CR's picket lines come into vogue as you need something to provide warning, there are a lot of approaches to be covered. You get an inkling about why some obsolete tactics were used at the start of the Big war.

+1 [:)]

+2, though I know that the odds for this are quite long!

[RangerJoe]

Just make a WPO scenario.