Suggestions for an economic rebalancing

[Dampfnudel]

I have suggestions for an economic rebalancing.

Issue: The "Tax loop". At the moment every wage you pay to workers/soldiers/characters becomes part of the income of your cities. This means it becomes taxable. This leads to the incentive to tax as high as possible and to have as many workers as possible. If you have 100% of your population as workers at 100% tax you get 100% of your money back, having an infinite money pool and a super happy population.

Issue: "The migration pull". Having only a super small nonworker population and many high paid worker will skyrocket the average income of your nonworker population. This will make the entire map move to that city.
Having only

Issue: "The Inflation" as all cities create cash and nothing burns cash, the available money raises. As current counter measurement the "traders" start to hoard cash.

Suggestion 1: Cash into Worker/Character/soldier payment is destroyed. This way the size of the public sector is limited by the available cash of the private sector.
As the private sector would now have the critical purpose as a cash generator it needs more ways to generate cash. Private buildings like an arena, commerce district, etc. should generate cash.

Issue: "City Spam". As cities provide as fixed base cash and IC generation ("hidden economy") it is a tactic to spam many cities to harvest that "hidden economy". As "light industry" is limited at level 3, more cities mean more private cash and IC as well.

Suggestion 2: Remove the "hidden economy" and add cash and IC to more private buildings and more levels.

Issue: It feels weird that the government builds police stations, mines, and factories while the private sector builds libraries and custom stations.

Suggestion 3:
-All Mines, Farms, and industries should be available for both sectors.
-Pure Private sector: Entertainment: Arena, Commerical district, Casino, etc. giving Cash and QoL
-Pure Public Sector: Security: Police, Custom Stations giving security QoL
- Education and Health should be the public sector, but high commerce levels should allow it to the private sector.

[jimwinsor]

These are good.

And let me add my own suggestion: Allow import/export tariffs on majors, without a Trade Agreement. Currently you need a Trade Agreement with a major power to slap a tariff on them, which makes no sense as tariffs are something that YOU enact at YOUR border. The current rule forces you to get permission from a major to tariff them, which makes no sense.

The default should be that you can tariff a major at will (just as you can a minor), subject only to the potential for the major getting diplomatically upset, trade being driven elsewhere, and/or enacted Trade Agreements which impose limits on tariffs.

[Vic]

@Dampf,
Thanks for your analysis. It is appreciated. And in fact I am making some changes for next beta based on your feedback.

See changelist for upcoming v106-beta2. Within the hour!

Keep in mind that there is a Monetary Constant algorithm running in the background which can cause Traders to divert up to 3% of their cash into "treasures" (think golden statues or hoards) to ensure inflation does not spiral out of control.

City Spam does mean you need to appoint Governors who require salary and could pose problems. Usually more Zones is also more problems. But i'll give it some thought.

@jim
Trade is not really allowed without a Trade Agreement. hence.

[solops]

I have run into real problems due to rapid expansion. I don't know how much nerfing should be done until adequate testing has been done to the current configuration. Another thing is build up of a city without adequate pop happy building results in the city basically burning back down to nothing from whence you have to build it back up....sort of a prolonged death spiral that is almost impossible to break out of.. All of the tricks, - building scrapping/deactivation, governor nerfing, etc are required to have even a chance of saving the city short of ground zero.

[Vic]

ORIGINAL: solops

I have run into real problems due to rapid expansion. I don't know how much nerfing should be done until adequate testing has been done to the current configuration. Another thing is build up of a city without adequate pop happy building results in the city basically burning back down to nothing from whence you have to build it back up....sort of a prolonged death spiral that is almost impossible to break out of.. All of the tricks, - building scrapping/deactivation, governor nerfing, etc are required to have even a chance of saving the city short of ground zero.

I don't understand the link with Income Tax here? could you clarify a bit better if it is the case?

[solops]

No particular relation to income tax. My comments are more in line with the thread title = Suggestions for an economic rebalancing. I see all of this as "economic". The problems arising from rapid expansion may not be a problem at all, more of a check on spamming cities, hence the comment on not nerfing until it is understood better. However, the death spiral of a city whose workers flee is something that should be looked at. There should be a way out, albeit at some cost in time and treasure. There may well be one that I simply have not found. In my current game I have a city that I cannot raise back up at all, no matter how many resources, new governors, nerfed governor and people I throw at it.

[bvoid]

I've played many games now without ever increasing income tax or tariffs, mostly because I just forget.

Instead most/all my cash comes from selling rare materials. Maybe this is supposed to represent gold mining? Anyway - no need for tax a lot of the time.

Nerf gold mining please

To expand: In most games I spam recycling enters on ruins, as does everyone else I guess. Thus always end up floating huge amounts of rares - which don't really get used until late-mid game and onwards. When I sell lots on the market the price gets depressed, but always recovers after a few turns. Other items like water/food often have no demand - but can always sell rares it seems.

[Destragon]

ORIGINAL: bvoid

Instead most/all my cash comes from selling rare materials. Maybe this is supposed to represent gold mining? Anyway - no need for tax a lot of the time.

Nerf gold mining please

To expand: In most games I spam recycling enters on ruins, as does everyone else I guess. Thus always end up floating huge amounts of rares - which don't really get used until late-mid game and onwards. When I sell lots on the market the price gets depressed, but always recovers after a few turns. Other items like water/food often have no demand - but can always sell rares it seems.

Do you play on planets with huge pre-apocalypse populations? It would explain why you're finding rare metals so easily.
Maybe traders ignore ruins or something when calculating their prices? It's probably true that rare earth prices should be lower, when there are a ton of ruins.

[bvoid]

You are right - I pretty much always roll until I get 1 billion+ pre-apocalypse population.

Also I suspect you are correct in that this abundance of rares on the planet is not getting factored into the market price.

Vic - how come some commodities often are so common that you can't sell them (food/water on some maps) - but others like rare materials always seem to be in demand?

[Vic]

Artisinal production of machines uses a lot of rare metals.

[bvoid]

Ah that might make some sense.

Does the AI benefit from artifact sites? Player gets lots of machinery for them - so I don't find I need to artisanally produce machinery after turn 10 or so.

So player can easily float rares and flog them for $$$. Needs balancing

[Vic]

ORIGINAL: bvoid

Ah that might make some sense.

Does the AI benefit from artifact sites? Player gets lots of machinery for them - so I don't find I need to artisanally produce machinery after turn 10 or so.

So player can easily float rares and flog them for $$$. Needs balancing

The AI is not really aware of the need to build Scav Assets on those Artifacts. So that is not a bad idea at all.

You have a special Planet there though. Normally there are not so many Artifacts to be found.

best,
Vic

[Dampfnudel]

ORIGINAL: Vic

@Dampf,
Thanks for your analysis. It is appreciated. And in fact I am making some changes for next beta based on your feedback.

See changelist for upcoming v106-beta2. Within the hour!

Keep in mind that there is a Monetary Constant algorithm running in the background which can cause Traders to divert up to 3% of their cash into "treasures" (think golden statues or hoards) to ensure inflation does not spiral out of control.

City Spam does mean you need to appoint Governors who require salary and could pose problems. Usually more Zones is also more problems. But i'll give it some thought.

@jim
Trade is not really allowed without a Trade Agreement. hence.

Thank you. I am also very happy that you accepted my suggestion for the supply system rework to a pull based logic. In my last game, one huge map went flawless without being annoyed with the logistics. I had fun building trains to supply my army.

I know I could simply stop using game-breaking mechanics like the "tax loop" but I always feel forced to play "competitive".
"Tax loop" + "city spam" is infinite money in the game. Cash spirals out of control as it is created out of thin air in absourd amounts and never leaves the system overfloating everything. Modern Governments would be jealous.

I read the changelog and it will not change the "meta" of creating a "tax loop" , "migration pull" or "city spam".

Pop income is basicly a function of government spending / population. High taxes --> Many Workers --> High Government Spending&low Population.

city with 10000 workers and 100 population
80% income tax
10$ income per 1000 worker = 100$ government spending
80% tax = 20$ surplus for private sector
20$/100 pop => 200$ income per 1000 population. This city will attract all population on the map, as in fact, they have the highest income.

The government would have a deficit of 20$ in that city.
BUT: A light industry + service tax + hidden economy is much higher.

So with a population of 100.000 a player can form 10 of such cities. All with maximal loyal workers. And a population so small it can not revolt. Attracting migration from the entire map. Swimming in cash and free IC.

Not to mention the massive natural population growth from each city giving you infinite manpower. By building that deep mine core everywhere you also have infinite minerals.

[Vic]

@Dampfnudel,

Would you be so kind to send over a save game of your optimization procedures in action? to vic@vrdesigns.net with a link to this thread.

Rest assured that i'll address this further over time. Just don't like to move to briskly.

Best wishes,
Vic