MM (Axis) vs ComadrejaKorp (allied) ComadrejaKorp very welcome :)

[malkarma]

The difference is 360PP against 396PP. So in order to build the max amount of armor possible to arrive before June '40 maybe is better to build the '39 tech heavys even if you will have to upgrade them later.

[MagicMissile]

You might well be right. Every productionpoint counts still might be worth thinking about.

I am not sure if you have 1940 breakthrough and 1940 heavy arm tech if you change a 1940 breakthrough will it get 39 heavy or 40 heavy?

[ago1000]

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

Yes the subs is in both games doing very well again. And there are not that many of them. I worry a little bit if they are a bit too good now. I used to think they were quite bad not any longer [:)]

This may now be a minor % adjustment with the new sub hunter rule.

[kennonlightfoot]

If you would, could you show how taking Yugoslavia and Greece affected your production numbers?
Was there any gain in German production from taking these countries and their resources to offset the garrisoning that will be required.

Obviously there is a VP gain that may be of benefit in determining the winner at the end of game but the cost of taking those countries and garrisoning them may cost the Axis player in Russia later negating this.

[MagicMissile]

Sorry I am not sure but below is the reason why I did it. It is an answer from Alvaro in a thread where it was discussed how to get Norway and the Balkans back into the game.

Quote from Alvaro:
You invade Yugoslavia for the production +1000 PP throughout the game (240 PP to garrison)
You invade Greece for the the production +520 PP throughout the game (120 PP to garrison)
Norway is the tricky one +520 PP throughout the game (300 PP to garrison)

As I understand it unfortunately the VP hexes dont really matter in a normal game. I think it was Harrybanana who helped me to figure that out. I didnt do the math completely just a bit in my head but as the system is now if the game is a normal game with Germany losing VP hexes on fairly normal dates there is no way the Allies can win a VP victory. I think basically right now the game is conquer the Axis before August 45 or the Axis wins.

I hope this could be changed somehow.

[malkarma]

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

You might well be right. Every productionpoint counts still might be worth thinking about.

I am not sure if you have 1940 breakthrough and 1940 heavy arm tech if you change a 1940 breakthrough will it get 39 heavy or 40 heavy?

They will upgrade from Breakthrough '40 to Heavy '40.

[MagicMissile]

Ok thanks [:)]

[ago1000]

ORIGINAL: malkarma

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

You might well be right. Every productionpoint counts still might be worth thinking about.

I am not sure if you have 1940 breakthrough and 1940 heavy arm tech if you change a 1940 breakthrough will it get 39 heavy or 40 heavy?

They will upgrade from Breakthrough '40 to Heavy '40.

I think the loss is 10% effectiveness which can be made up in a turn or 2 with an HQ near by.(6% base + 4% HQ Bonus). The difficulty I'm finding is that you just don't have that many research points so you need to be selective.

[ago1000]

ORIGINAL: malkarma

The difference is 360PP against 396PP. So in order to build the max amount of armor possible to arrive before June '40 maybe is better to build the '39 tech heavys even if you will have to upgrade them later.

39-360, 40 - 396, 41 - 432
This is an excellent idea. Thanks. There is no difference in cost, 36 PP, to either build first and upgrade later or buy outright. When I read the rules, I thought it would cost 40PP to upgrade from 40 to 41 (10% of prod cost or 10% of 396) but it remains at 36PP throughout. My thoughts were that it would be cheaper to build new, then upgrade old. But this is not the case, there are no savings. This will also allow you to control when they upgrade.

[MagicMissile]

Argh posted in the wrong forum again [:)]

[MagicMissile]

Wrong forum

[MagicMissile]

April 11 1941

The British try to distract from the buildup in the east and invade western France. But unfortunately for the British the garrison was not a division and not in garrison mode so 1 division eliminated. I did send a inf corps west, It was supposed to go east. But this little adventure will cost the UK 50 in landingcrafts and like 120-140 in troops so worth one delayed inf corps for sure.

[MagicMissile]

Buildup continues in the east. Looking at Soviet setup it is more of a zoc defense in the north and the normal line in the south. Also looks like the Soviet airforce wants to be active from the start. We will see how it will work out. It looks like a lot of Soviets and as I thought my Germans about 150 strength short. This wont be easy [:)]

[malkarma]

ORIGINAL: ago1000

ORIGINAL: malkarma

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

You might well be right. Every productionpoint counts still might be worth thinking about.

I am not sure if you have 1940 breakthrough and 1940 heavy arm tech if you change a 1940 breakthrough will it get 39 heavy or 40 heavy?

They will upgrade from Breakthrough '40 to Heavy '40.

I think the loss is 10% effectiveness which can be made up in a turn or 2 with an HQ near by.(6% base + 4% HQ Bonus). The difficulty I'm finding is that you just don't have that many research points so you need to be selective.

There is no issue with the research. German start with '40 Breaktrhough tech and have 4 research points there. Move 2 to the heavy armor one and you will have 4 there and 2 spare points that will go to interceptors and submarines ones.

[MagicMissile]

I tend to go full research on heavy armour and a little bit on breakthrough until 1941 tech then I skip it.

[kennonlightfoot]

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

Sorry I am not sure but below is the reason why I did it. It is an answer from Alvaro in a thread where it was discussed how to get Norway and the Balkans back into the game.

Quote from Alvaro:
You invade Yugoslavia for the production +1000 PP throughout the game (240 PP to garrison)
You invade Greece for the the production +520 PP throughout the game (120 PP to garrison)
Norway is the tricky one +520 PP throughout the game (300 PP to garrison)

As I understand it unfortunately the VP hexes dont really matter in a normal game. I think it was Harrybanana who helped me to figure that out. I didnt do the math completely just a bit in my head but as the system is now if the game is a normal game with Germany losing VP hexes on fairly normal dates there is no way the Allies can win a VP victory. I think basically right now the game is conquer the Axis before August 45 or the Axis wins.

I hope this could be changed somehow.

I ran a quick test that confirmed an increase in production but didn't get numbers quite as high as quoted. Did a very quick invasion by playing both sides and not defending with the Allies. I couldn't separate out the effect of including Greece since there was no gain for the Germans from taking Greece until they took Yugoslavia as well (no rail link apparently).

Before the invasion:
German Production 315 with x1.25 multiplier.
Italian Production 74 with x1.15 multiplier.

After both Greece and Yugoslavia occupied and in addition you get Bulgaria for invading Greece (provides 2 PP by Imports).
German Production 343 with x1.35 multiplier.
Italian Production 76 with x1.18 multiplier.

I used German units to take capitals and resource just to make sure Italy didn't get any. So the maximum gain appears to be slightly less than 28 (since the multiplier would go up some over the turns used). Depending on why you did it that would amount to about 2800 production over four years. The cost would be whatever the casualties were from the invasion plus the garrisons required to keep partisans in check and Allies from invading. There is also the cost of diverting forces from Russia if Yugoslavia is taken during spring of 41.

My understanding is that VP's are still important if the German wants to win. They don't automatically win by preventing the Allies from taking Berlin and Germany. The Allies do win automatically if they do this but if not victory is still determined by who has the most VP points. Having two more VP hexes can't hurt for having them for four years.

[kennonlightfoot]

I think the loss is 10% effectiveness which can be made up in a turn or 2 with an HQ near by.(6% base + 4% HQ Bonus). The difficulty I'm finding is that you just don't have that many research points so you need to be selective.

I didn't think Effectiveness increased except through combat experience?

[malkarma]

I feel that you are mixing effectiveness with experience.

[ago1000]

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

I think the loss is 10% effectiveness which can be made up in a turn or 2 with an HQ near by.(6% base + 4% HQ Bonus). The difficulty I'm finding is that you just don't have that many research points so you need to be selective.

I didn't think Effectiveness increased except through combat experience?

The rule has changed since the beta. Effectiveness is not lost any longer but the following is in play:
Air Groups: Cost: 1 Production point per stenngth 2% Experience for Training
Land Groups Cost: 1 production point per strength only.

Unit Effectiveness is based heavily on the supply level of the hex. The supply level of the hex is based on mech movement cost and weather. Each unit get a base effectiveness increase of a percentage of 6% if they are on supply per turn. There is a formula in the manual:

(1 - current effectiveness) x ( base + 2 * (supply level of hex) + HQ Bonus(5 hex radius))

So mathematically, a unit that starts it's turn at 50% effectiveness resting on a hex with supply 2 and a HQ within 5 hexes would receive a 50% of 14 increase in effectiveness:
Formula: (1 - 0.5) x (6 + 2x2 + 4) = 0.5 x 14 = 7% effectiveness increase that turn.

But if that same unit was resting on a rail line(supply level 9) then it would get 14% effectiveness increase that turn.

The kicker is the winter and blizzard penalties of the Russian winter, -10% and -20% respectively. Hence why a lot of winter turns, players just sit there dumping a ton of trucks to keep their effectiveness up and not moving.

Strength of unit is simply how many hits it can take before it is removed from the map.
Attack and Defense strength seems to be a function of effectiveness and experience together.

[MagicMissile]

Thanks for the effectiveness lesson

I think maybe there should be an xp hit on units changing as well not sure why only air units.