Naval Attack Altitude for two engine bombers

[MButtsworth]

I was wondering what was the correct altitude for two engine bombers conducting a naval attack? I read 100 feet but I am not sure if that is too low.
Any ideas?
And what about B17s on naval attack?
There is so much I do not know or have forgotten in my 8 year break from the game.

Matthew Buttsworth

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: MButtsworth

I was wondering what was the correct altitude for two engine bombers conducting a naval attack? I read 100 feet but I am not sure if that is too low.
Any ideas?
And what about B17s on naval attack?
There is so much I do not know or have forgotten in my 8 year break from the game.

Matthew Buttsworth

It depends. Attacking a battleship with bombs, especially an American one after mid-1942, will be very different from attacking a convoy of xAKLs and PBs. So the answer is "Go as low as you dare, but not below 2000 feet unless your pilots are trained in low naval attack."

A few 2E bombers are designated Assault Bombers, usually with a lot of forward firing guns. These should train in Low Naval attack at 1000 feet and Strafe at 100 feet. In addition, some 2E bombers like the B-25D1 and subsequent models can also be used as low level naval bombers but they do not get the Assault bomber bonus of no reduction in bomb load (AFAIK), so they will carry half the normal bomb load. Low level bombers are also vulnerable to heavy flak.

In PBEMs, the players often agree to a rule against using 4EBs below 10,000 feet but the game itself does not restrict them.

Both sides have 2EBs that can carry torpedoes instead of bombs. You can set any altitude you like for the them and they will descend to 200' to drop their torps before climbing back to the altitude you set. Higher altitude is better for flak avoidance, but sometimes a very low approach is better to sneak under CAP. Air warfare is a game of measure and counter-measure and you must try to be unpredictable against a human player,

[Nomad]

B-25D1 bombers are attack bombers.

[Lokasenna]

If you have attack bombers, you can/should use them at 100 feet. Note that they appear to use the Strafing skill at that altitude, not low-naval. Attack bombers are not penalized in terms of bomb load for flying at this altitude.

It's been a long time, but there may also be something of a bonus for attack bombers when strafing: I think they might suppress some flak from ships. I may be misremembering. Clearly, I need my games to reach late 1943 with regular turns so I can use them and remember from experience.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: MButtsworth

I was wondering what was the correct altitude for two engine bombers conducting a naval attack? I read 100 feet but I am not sure if that is too low.
Any ideas?
And what about B17s on naval attack?
There is so much I do not know or have forgotten in my 8 year break from the game.

Matthew Buttsworth

There used to be some skip bombing code for low level attacks by 2E and the like.

It was decommissioned in one of the patches.

Nonetheless, 2E bombers with high skills in low-nav tend to get more hits down on the deck than tootling around at 17,000 feet. So I send them in at 1000 ft to use the low nav skill (once trained).

B17s flying at 1000 feet seems unlikely to me, they're for sinking ships in port flying at between 5000 and 8000 feet, conducting searches and bombing airfields.

There are often comments on this board about allied 4Es flying below 10k ft being "non-historical". I am not sure what the sources for that view are. The accounts I have seen all say that air warfare in the Pacific was usually conducted at much lower altitudes than in the European theatre.

[Sardaukar]

I use 1000 ft for naval bombing. I don't use 4E for that before 1943 because I consider it "gamey".

2E bombers are deadly at 1000 ft and attack bombers drop automatically to 100ft to skip bomb and strafe. Downside is that you don't often do much against BBs because of their heavy belt armour.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you have attack bombers, you can/should use them at 100 feet. Note that they appear to use the Strafing skill at that altitude, not low-naval. Attack bombers are not penalized in terms of bomb load for flying at this altitude.

It's been a long time, but there may also be something of a bonus for attack bombers when strafing: I think they might suppress some flak from ships. I may be misremembering. Clearly, I need my games to reach late 1943 with regular turns so I can use them and remember from experience.

I remember it the same - not a bonus per se, but the multiple forward firing mgs have a better chance of suppressing the AA.

[Coach Zuck]

What bombers are considered Attack Bombers?
Allied/Japanese

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

What bombers are considered Attack Bombers?
Allied/Japanese

the Japanese don't have attack bombers

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

What bombers are considered Attack Bombers?
Allied/Japanese

the Japanese don't have attack bombers

+1

[rustysi]

To view the Allied attack bombers go to the menu bar at the top of the game page. Select 'show all land based planes' (or some such). Turn off the plane groups, then select the heading 'AB', for attack bombers, and there you go.

[fcooke]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: MButtsworth

I was wondering what was the correct altitude for two engine bombers conducting a naval attack? I read 100 feet but I am not sure if that is too low.
Any ideas?
And what about B17s on naval attack?
There is so much I do not know or have forgotten in my 8 year break from the game.

Matthew Buttsworth

It depends. Attacking a battleship with bombs, especially an American one after mid-1942, will be very different from attacking a convoy of xAKLs and PBs. So the answer is "Go as low as you dare, but not below 2000 feet unless your pilots are trained in low naval attack."

A few 2E bombers are designated Assault Bombers, usually with a lot of forward firing guns. These should train in Low Naval attack at 1000 feet and Strafe at 100 feet. In addition, some 2E bombers like the B-25D1 and subsequent models can also be used as low level naval bombers but they do not get the Assault bomber bonus of no reduction in bomb load (AFAIK), so they will carry half the normal bomb load. Low level bombers are also vulnerable to heavy flak.

In PBEMs, the players often agree to a rule against using 4EBs below 10,000 feet but the game itself does not restrict them.

Both sides have 2EBs that can carry torpedoes instead of bombs. You can set any altitude you like for the them and they will descend to 200' to drop their torps before climbing back to the altitude you set. Higher altitude is better for flak avoidance, but sometimes a very low approach is better to sneak under CAP. Air warfare is a game of measure and counter-measure and you must try to be unpredictable against a human player,

IIRC B-17s the pioneers of skip and were used against ships at the Canal, even nailing a DD from altitude.

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: MButtsworth

I was wondering what was the correct altitude for two engine bombers conducting a naval attack? I read 100 feet but I am not sure if that is too low.
Any ideas?
And what about B17s on naval attack?
There is so much I do not know or have forgotten in my 8 year break from the game.

Matthew Buttsworth

It depends. Attacking a battleship with bombs, especially an American one after mid-1942, will be very different from attacking a convoy of xAKLs and PBs. So the answer is "Go as low as you dare, but not below 2000 feet unless your pilots are trained in low naval attack."

A few 2E bombers are designated Assault Bombers, usually with a lot of forward firing guns. These should train in Low Naval attack at 1000 feet and Strafe at 100 feet. In addition, some 2E bombers like the B-25D1 and subsequent models can also be used as low level naval bombers but they do not get the Assault bomber bonus of no reduction in bomb load (AFAIK), so they will carry half the normal bomb load. Low level bombers are also vulnerable to heavy flak.

In PBEMs, the players often agree to a rule against using 4EBs below 10,000 feet but the game itself does not restrict them.

Both sides have 2EBs that can carry torpedoes instead of bombs. You can set any altitude you like for the them and they will descend to 200' to drop their torps before climbing back to the altitude you set. Higher altitude is better for flak avoidance, but sometimes a very low approach is better to sneak under CAP. Air warfare is a game of measure and counter-measure and you must try to be unpredictable against a human player,

IIRC B-17s the pioneers of skip and were used against ships at the Canal, even nailing a DD from altitude.

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2020/ ... p-bombing/

B-17s pioneered it, mainly because they were only planes with range to reach Rabaul.

[Moltrey]

MB, just be sure to NOT use an altitude of 100ft unless it is an Allied Attack Bomber or a squadron you want to have strafe a target.
I made the mistake early on of assuming "Oh, hey... ASW mission, the lower, the better, right?" Uhh... NO. All the west coast B-25's I assigned to ASW at 100ft did was occasionally attempt to strafe sub contacts. Needless to say, not one hit was ever registered. By the way, 1000ft seems to work OK for ASW. Others here may have a different recommendation based on their experiences.

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

To view the Allied attack bombers go to the menu bar at the top of the game page. Select 'show all land based planes' (or some such). Turn off the plane groups, then select the heading 'AB', for attack bombers, and there you go.

This check tells me that B25G Mitchells are also classified as attack bombers - at least in the DBB scenario.

[Ian R]

Reading this thread just reinforces my opinion that house rules limiting allied bombers to above 10k ft are a sop to the JFBs - for game reasons, not reality.

Has anyone got some real objective evidence to support the allied bombers being restricted to going high?

Timotheus and Barb - I'm looking at you. Surely you have some references to backup your claims, so please link them so we can have a look.

[bradfordkay]

My recollection is that in the game 4E bomber squadrons that are well trained in naval bombing have a tendency to receive an obscene amount of hits on ships at sea when bombing below 10,000', so many PBEMs have the house rule that limits such use. I think that it is due to the number of bombs a 4E bomber carries compared to a 2E one.

[Ian R]

I'm guessing the same IJ players who demand that house rule, are the ones who bail out and disappear from the PBEM in mid 43, when their grand domination plan fails.

Say Again - Has anyone got some real objective evidence to support the allied bombers being restricted to going high?

[Moltrey]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Reading this thread just reinforces my opinion that house rules limiting allied bombers to above 10k ft are a sop to the JFBs - for game reasons, not reality.

Has anyone got some real objective evidence to support the allied bombers being restricted to going high?

Timotheus and Barb - I'm looking at you. Surely you have some references to backup your claims, so please link them so we can have a look.

Ian:
I can't say I have a significant sample size, but in learning as Allies I have transferred all my B-17s to Cagayan airfield regularly. There they are (if memory serves) within normal bombing range of Babeldaob. I have tried the typical 10k altitude level bombing with (expected) poor results. However, when I have a decent number of B-17s survive the surprise attack on Clark Field, setting up daylight low level bombing missions staggered between 2000 and 5000ft has garnered some serious, albeit unconfirmed walloping of Japanese ships in harbor and the surrounding area. I don't remember details on the hits and type scored as it has been months since I last did the raids. Seems to work pretty well. Sometimes you get lucky and shoot down a number of Claude fighters too with some damage but very low losses.

Not sure if is statistically relevant, but there you go.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Reading this thread just reinforces my opinion that house rules limiting allied bombers to above 10k ft are a sop to the JFBs - for game reasons, not reality.

Has anyone got some real objective evidence to support the allied bombers being restricted to going high?

Timotheus and Barb - I'm looking at you. Surely you have some references to backup your claims, so please link them so we can have a look.

All house rules are a sop, in one form or another.

In this particular case, the argument was that 4E bombers were very effective on naval attack missions because their large bombload meant they'd have a much higher chance of landing a hit, and their defensive armament and high durability meant IJ CAP struggles to inflict losses.

Taken to the extreme, you could train NavB pilots for your B-29s in an effort to scour the seas of IJ shipping, should you wish. If such a strategy would be effective and what counters there are to it I will leave as an exercise to the reader