All of France gambit?

[mdsmall]

I have read various references in this Forum to the "All of France" gambit - which I understand means the Axis opts not to create Vichy when Paris falls but instead fights on to conquer all of France, presumably including Algeria and Tunisia. What's the game logic for Axis in choosing this strategy? It would seem to tie up a significant number of German corps and MPPs in completely defeating an enemy which no longer poses any strategic threat to the Axis, but at a significant cost in resources and time that will be needed to prepare for Barbarosa, plus operations in the Balkans and North Africa in 1941. It might improve the Axis's chances of getting Spain to swing to the Axis side, but is that guaranteed - given the limits on diplomacy towards Spain? And even if Spain does join the Axis, does that offset the delays in taking on the Soviets, allowing their war machine to starting revving into high gear before Germany is in a position to invade? Grateful for advice from players who have seen this gambit play out.

[The Land]

Well, that's why it's a gambit!

I understand there's an extra scripted bonus for Spain to move Axis if France is completely conquered, which should do the trick alongside diplomacy. Spain is a significant win as it has a large army, a whole bunch of MPPs, and Gibraltar. Plus the MPPs from what would have been Vichy France. That is quite a big long-term MPP advantage. Is it worth it? Who knows...

[Markiss]

I am currently in a match where my opponent has chosen this option. In addition to causing issues with the Soviets, another consequence of trying this is that the US mobilization goes sky high. It went up when he invaded Vichy, it went up again when he invaded Spain, then shot up once more when he approached Gibraltar. And he hasn't even invaded Algeria or Tunisia yet.

US mobilization is in the 80's in early 1941. Their research is already maxed out, now it is time to start building the Great Horde.

It is going to be a fun game for the Yanks. My opponent will have some extra mpps as well, we will see if it is worth it.

[mdsmall]

Ok - here is a subsidiary question. If the Axis conquers an overseas French territory - like Tunisia or Algeria - before France surrenders, do those territories remain under Axis control if Vichy is declared? Or do they revert to being neutral Vichy territories, as it they had never been occupied? And if the latter is the case, what happens to any Axis units in those territories after Vichy is declared?

[Scottydawg]

I recently played against an axis opponent using this stratagem; in the event he ended up winning in early 1945. A few things stand out:

Fall Gelb did not include Belgium or Netherlands DOW (this was done in 1942)
No DOW on Low Countries meant no immediate Italian reaction (no change in DOW %); this resulted in no possible early offensive in Cyrenaica from Egypt (thus no disruption whatsoever to DAK arrival)
I believe my opponent chose "NO" when deciding to accept Vichy w/Petain, even though all of metropolitan France went "German gray" at the same time. North Africa/Syria did not however; a small force w/HQ did appear in Algeria
When the capitol (Oran) fell, all territories fell under German control

My perspective: No DOW on Low Countries (except Luxembourg) ended up delaying EVERYONE'S entry into the fray; my opponent used this gap to virtually guarantee a successful entry of Spain on the side of the axis. Gibraltar then soon fell--the bottle had been corked!
USSR's DOW% remained low; axis planned Barbarossa for Summer 1942. USSR industry basically went bananas by mid-1941 (no axis DOW yet), which allowed for uncommon "pre-attack" research levels. This is very exciting for the Soviets of course...
USA entered war after USSR was attacked (I think...); there was no Pearl Harbor DE script

This was an extremely informative game in which much was learned...like:

When Turkey enters war [allied side anyway], units are weak/scattered and there are few rail lines--one traversing Syrian coast to Bosporus, and NONE entering Russia! This hurt...
The [3] Spanish islands to the south made excellent sub bases which were time-consuming to eliminate; if I hadn't handled his U-boats roughly in the beginning this could have been disastrous for the UK
A delayed Barbarossa potentially places Finland (and the whole northern front for that matter) in a precarious situation with a full year to mobilize USSR and plan for early advances...

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Scottydawg

I recently played against an axis opponent using this stratagem; in the event he ended up winning in early 1945. A few things stand out:

Fall Gelb did not include Belgium or Netherlands DOW (this was done in 1942)
No DOW on Low Countries meant no immediate Italian reaction (no change in DOW %); this resulted in no possible early offensive in Cyrenaica from Egypt (thus no disruption whatsoever to DAK arrival)
I believe my opponent chose "NO" when deciding to accept Vichy w/Petain, even though all of metropolitan France went "German gray" at the same time. North Africa/Syria did not however; a small force w/HQ did appear in Algeria
When the capitol (Oran) fell, all territories fell under German control

My perspective: No DOW on Low Countries (except Luxembourg) ended up delaying EVERYONE'S entry into the fray; my opponent used this gap to virtually guarantee a successful entry of Spain on the side of the axis. Gibraltar then soon fell--the bottle had been corked!
USSR's DOW% remained low; axis planned Barbarossa for Summer 1942. USSR industry basically went bananas by mid-1941 (no axis DOW yet), which allowed for uncommon "pre-attack" research levels. This is very exciting for the Soviets of course...
USA entered war after USSR was attacked; there was no Pearl Harbor DE script

This was an extremely informative game in which much was learned...like:

When Turkey enters war [allied side anyway], units are weak/scattered and there are few rail lines--one traversing Syrian coast to Bosporus, and NONE entering Russia! This hurt...
The [3] Spanish islands to the south made excellent sub bases which were time-consuming to eliminate; if I hadn't handled his U-boats roughly in the beginning this could have been disastrous for the UK
A delayed Barbarossa potentially places Finland (and the whole northern front for that matter) in a precarious situation with a full year to mobilize USSR and plan for early advances...

Very interesting!

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Ok - here is a subsidiary question. If the Axis conquers an overseas French territory - like Tunisia or Algeria - before France surrenders, do those territories remain under Axis control if Vichy is declared? Or do they revert to being neutral Vichy territories, as it they had never been occupied? And if the latter is the case, what happens to any Axis units in those territories after Vichy is declared?

If Germany say yes to Vichy then all the Vichy states are formed as neutrals, and any Axis units in them should be moved to friendly territory. Probably Libya in this instance.