The best core force for a long campaign?

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 6:58 am

This may not be the best time for asking this, given that 5.3 may alter previous perceptions, but what the hell. I know that the Germans are very popular, and I would start out in Sept 39 with a mixed KG of a motorized infantry company and a mixed panzer company. That of course is subject to change. However, given the six-nation selection, what are your optimum choices for the starting core forces for the long campaigns, for any of these nationalities? This can help newbies as well as veterans in getting started on the long road to victory.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:29 pm

I'm doing something a bit different KG. I'm mixing in about 15-20 Axis Minor units in with the Germans. With the exception of taking a real cheap MG platoon instead of an infantry platoon, which I'll later upgrade to infantry, the types of units are pretty much the same.

I have a medium tank company and three tank platoons. One platoon is the M11/39 from the Italians.

I have 6 AA sections, which could change around as I go. Since I know the early years for the Gerries is not a flak problem, many of them I picked are the cheapest out of the Axis I could find, though there is a couple of exceptions like the Japanese 25mm triple gun mount (that ought to prove interesting).
Also there is a Finnish gun that has two AA gun slots on it. The Italian SPAA truck is real cheap at 13pts.

I carry a platoon of scout vehicles which will turn into armored recom later. I also purchased, just to have artillery, the Japanese 70mm mountain gun, which is only 25pts (upgrade to the German gun maybe later, or then again maybe a larger Italian model. The Japanese gun only has a range of 25 though).

I definitely believe in having infantry scouts in core, though ihave the two man variety. Normally people might buy them for a cheap unit to upgrade to regular infantry later, but me I leave then as 2 man squads, as their difficulty to be detected is invaluable.

I have a platoon of 37mm ATGs, which I might switch some to 88s later. I also am hot on the idea of the PZIIIE now, since it's gun is actually wrth something now. They are expensive, so I'll probably typically but the cheapest of another tank platoon, just so things sort of balance out after I buy the Uber tank in the PZIIIE.

I also ALWAYS carry 2 German engineer platoons in core with one infantry.

That's my overall outlook and it's new to a degree and much of the composition is untested (foreign equipment) in this version or indeed in the previous ones. I'm well aware of what my forces can do with the general type of composition ratio, but with the foreign stuff and the upgunning of the PZIIE, alongside the new versions I am going through uncharted waters a bit.

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:38 pm

It sounds like you have the right idea for core forces. A good mix of armor, infantry, artillery (don't forget an FO and ammo trucks), and whatever else you want to throw in the mix. Some AA can be useful if your enemy still has planes, and if not can shoot hell out of their infantry. The countries involved shouldn't make a difference to the basic idea of a mix. Units that don't seem useful can be replaced later.

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 7:00 pm

Here are the things I consider when building my core force, although of course some of this may change based on 5.3:

First, how long is this campaign going to last? For some of the "canned" campaigns, you don't fight enough battles to upgrade everything, but for the long WW2 campaign, I recommend figuring out what you eventually want your force to be, then work backwards when deciding what to buy. EG if you want 3 platoons of Tigers, 4 platoons of Engineers on Haltracks, 3 sections of SP AA, 2 platoons of SPA and 2 FO's in 1943, you have to figure out how to afford the appropriate stuff that can be eventually upgraded.

Buy a mixture of decent stuff and cheap stuff. If you just buy cheap stuff, you get better upgrade opportunities but you'll have trouble winning the early battles. I usually start with at least one platoon of engineers and decent tanks (Pz3's or 4's for '39 Germans). Also remember that you should reassign some units as the game progresses to build more effective platoons.

Build your core force with units that will benefit from experience upgrades. I never buy the ammo trucks in my core, I always buy them with the support points since they don't really benefit from experience. I'm not really sure if the FO's gain much experience but I think they do so I usually buy them (or upgrade to them ) in my core.

I generally don't take recon units in my core either. I used to take a few and attach them to my tank platoons and have them ride on the tanks to provide better observation. They kept getting killed off and they don't fight very well so I stopped doing that, but I do miss haveing infantry on my tanks. I think the Russians have a real (if historically accurate) advantage in their ability to carry full infantry squads on their tanks.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 7:38 pm

I like to use change command option. So if I buy a rifle coy, I will assign the FO to say the Coy Comd and thuse the extra rally attempt in sticky situations.
I use the change command option frequently in Campaigns and Email it is one of the most underated options the game has to offer.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 7:59 pm

Warrior: Yeah, I have a few miscellaneous units roaming about, like the mobile FO. On thing though, I sure the heck wouldn't pick ammo trucks in core, but leave them to support. It's an interesting thing, ammo trucks, because a LOT of battles I have they're not picked at all and I get by fine. With this new Uber-infantry that may change.

I believe in mobile FO in core because it can gain experience. I believe in relugating non-combatants to core, such as most transport and ammo units. If I were playing the USSR I would consider choosing one of those HQs in core. I only bought the artillery because I just want to crew around with it a bit and also because it's a dependable support unit, whereas with the offboard stuff you never know. Hmmm, assuming you can pick offboard artillery in core, I wonder if it gains experience?

Still, totally off topic here, One thing for me that would ENORMOUSLY improve this game, would be if I could select ALL units of a particular general class and go through them one at a time. For example go through all recon units first, then the tanks, then the infantry.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:36 pm

Originally posted by Charles_22:

Charles, your email isn't available. May I use your posts in the campaign section of my tactics guide?

Anyone have other tips not posted here?

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:39 pm

Originally posted by Kluckenbill:
I never buy the ammo trucks in my core...
I generally don't take recon units in my core either.

Each of us has their own way of doing things, but I've been caught too often with no support points to not want to cover as many bases as possible in my core.

One thing I do is sit with a calculator and pad to figure exactly what I want before I purchase, then what I can afford. The time spent that way helps me focus, i.e., I'd like the 37mm AA halftrack, but the 20mm one is cheaper, or, if I do it this way instead of that way I'll have just enough left for one Panther, etc.

I try to use the support points to add specific units for the particular mission.

And one other thing - you can adjust the points available for purchase and support if you want to. There's a great article by Warhorse about Making Custom Changes in a Generated/Long Campaign on Tankhead's page: http://www.tankheadcentral.com/main.html

[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:41 pm

In another thread on jungle fighting, it was suggested that the US will run out of BAR, etc. ammo and needs an ammo unit. If you are always going to need it I'd buy it in core. The cost is a few less points for grunt units but just buy a cheaper one and upgrade it later.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:56 pm

Larry Holt: Feel free, and also feel free to correct the typos.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 10:08 pm

Warrior: Yeah I hate to forget something in support that I felt I needed, but if one is campaigning regularly and just absolutely feels they have to have a certain unit, but would rather it be in support, one could set a hard rule that those units have to be purchased first. I've pretty much made that my rule, since a number of my battles see no transport at all, I'll have to purchase them first to keep from forgetting (I do carry anything between 2-5 halftracks in core all the time, so it's not like I don't have something, They're marvelous too because they can of course shoot, but also because they're fast and difficult enough to hit in one or two volleys, that I can use them to transport one squad and then go back and get another without a lot of delay [which of course would be ever more helpful if I ever once bothered with smoke]).

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 10:35 pm

Guess I'm a little different, but as I play huge campaigns, my personal favorite is a tank battalion with all direct supports, then support in any recon, engineers, or such as called for by the mission. Makes for real interesting challenge, when I tell my brother to just make an infantry assault on my pos., and don't allow any infantry support for myself for that battle, requires sometimes some backstepping, then retaking objectives!!

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:50 pm

Warhorse: I know where you're coming from, because I pretty much use my egineers and infantry as 'protected'. Basically I like to lay them between 2-6 hexes in front of the tanks. The tanks are 95% of my used firepower. The infantry are only used for assaults and when the enemy is pretty much beaten so as to give them more experience. If I would ever quit restarting campaigns this style of play would pay off larger and then I'd be having infantry with 100+ experience (imagine that!). Since infantry are so easily damaged I shy from using them early in the campaign, but then it depends on the opponent and nation too. If I'm USSRing they're so cheap that I buy an extra platoon in core, thereby I can at least afford to have one platoon going through a shootfest a battle.

My Gerry core force is pretty close to (3189 total points to purchase after A0):
29-35 tanks
3 anti-personnel tanks (such as PZ1B or SIG33)
2-5 halftracks
8 engineers
4 infantry
8-12 AA units
4-8 MGs (4 to convert to infantry most likely)
3 infantry scouts
3 mobile scouts (changed to armored recon later)
1 mobile FO
2 light field guns
4 ATGs
1 special ops unit or possibly 2-3 ATRs.

Phocks · Post by **Phocks** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 2:18 am

Personally, I like to go for balanced forces, and I also like to avoid completely unreasonable forces (i.e., every AT gun is an 88, every tank a tiger). Beating T-34s with 37mm and short 50s is a LOT more fun than just "88ing" them form 25 hexes, IMHO.

Anyway, I'm currently playing the WWII campaign as the limeys, here's what I boughtand what it is currently (Spring 44):

HQ

Recon Section (2)- started as MkVIc, upgraded to Stuarts and now Cromwell IVs

Medium tank troop (4)- originally cruisers, then Crusaders, now SHermans- had a CS tank attached while they were equipped with the pop-guns. Only one Sherman is a Firefly (As was historical)

Infantry tank troop (4)- Originally Matilda IIs and 1 Matilda III-CS, now Churchill IV's

Infantry Platoon (leg)

Infantry Platoon (mechanized)

AT section (2)- started with 2Lbrs, then 6Lbrs, then 17Lbrs, finally Achilles IIC

The carriers in the mech platoon originally towed around the AT guns as needed. Also, the infantry has been upgraded, and now the platoons have HMG sections instead of the worthless 2" mortars, and the HQ platoons are now SMG sections.

I find this force is very balanced, though in really close terrain I need more infantry and occaisionally scouts/armored cars. I probably should have bought an FO, but didn't think about it at the time. My next force will certainly have one.

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 3:12 am

Charles' idea of a pick and choose multinational force is pretty intriguing, but I went to a site that has schematic TOE diagrams for various German divisions, and I can try putting together a somewhat historical kampfgruppe for the long campaign.The site is http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/. Of course, there's also Scott Grasse's Tables of Organization in the SPWaW folder, the Panzerdiesel site, and others. Nevertheless, keep your ideas coming, guys.

[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: KG Erwin ]

General Mayhem · Post by **General Mayhem** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 3:54 am

Originally posted by KG Erwin:
This may not be the best time for asking this, given that 5.3 may alter previous perceptions, but what the hell. I know that the Germans are very popular, and I would start out in Sept 39 with a mixed KG of a motorized infantry company and a mixed panzer company. That of course is subject to change. However, given the six-nation selection, what are your optimum choices for the starting core forces for the long campaigns, for any of these nationalities? This can help newbies as well as veterans in getting started on the long road to victory.

I try build cheaply as possible with little troops, so that I don't end to small spaces
with horders of troops on either side. Also
I try to have transport, you never know when
you're going to need it badly. Makes a
diffrence in Meeting engaments who get's
first to some hill. Defensing is somewhat
easier than attacking.

For Germans(5.01):

In 5.01 I started with a tank company that early had some pz-38's, lot's of Ib's (twin turret MG) and one platoon of IV's. I later on changed one platoon to few Rad's with 2cm automatic guns. Basically, I change according opponent tank platoons. Rad's I took for as recon element and as a cheap numerical counterweight for British troops with lot of mechnised armor when I campaign move to France. I kept them in desert too.

Then I had a rifle and engineer platoon with
trucks(later changed to half-tracks), 2 x 81 mm batteries with gun teams as a transport, one recon team and one recon patrol plus a two stoewers for later modifications, rifle AT platoon and a couple
MG sections.

In 5.01, I got quite easily to North Africa
from Poland with this setup. Polish were propably the hardest.

For US army troops in Pacific(5.02+):

One company of rifle and one engineers +
plus few additional rifle platoons. I made
some modification to engineers platoons, mainly I took one squad of engineers and
changed it to a .30 MMG in each platoon.

One recon team with Thompson SMG's, and one recon patrol. Not very useful in battle, but
franky mathematiclly I rather lose one of them than walk a squad to Japanese machineguns. They also keep up with tanks well, so I've found useful to send few tanks
with recon elements to make a flanking movements. Recon units spot infantry before
I drive over them with tanks, they also spot
lot tanks don't spot when using most realistic preferences.

Four light tanks(in two secs). Mainly because
fast movement, armor and 3 x 0.30 MMG's +
as a tank busters. Their combined 12 MMG's have ran out of ammo in each battle so far.

2 sec's of 0.30 HMG's, 1 x 0.50 sec, 2 x mortar battery . 8 heavy trucks for evacuating mortars and as a some fast transport for infantry in Meeting Engaments.

Also a mixed platoon of two Arm Infantry with
Thompson SMG's and with two 0.30's as a 'fire brigade'. Mainly to be the force
that I transport to some objective area and holds it until my infantry moves to spot where they are.

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Mon Jul 02, 2001 5:37 am

I keep starting the long campaign until I can get the right mix, but here is Kampfgruppe Erwin at present, with Command Control OFF but Unit Comm ON: HQ unit, 2 Pz III, three sections of Pz IIs (9 Pz IIs), three Pz III sections (6 Pz IIIs), three Pz IV sections (6 Pz IVs), two SS Mech Platoons, one Wehrmacht Mech Platoon, an Engineer Platoon mounted in halftracks, 3 snipers in Stoewer 40s, a strong recon element with 6 Sdfkz 231/8s, 3 Heavy MC sguads, 3 MMG MC squads, 6 Recon Patrols with 8 halftracks (2 as spares), an FO in a Stoewer, and for extra punch to the Recon element 2 37mm SP Flak and 2 20mm Sp Flak.I also have 3 Kubelwagen MGs for the recon group and 2 Stoewers to collect stray crewmen. I opted for high quality and fast-moving groups, and I usually group these into 3 tank/mech inf groups and 2 recon groups to cover the flanks. The engineer platoon is the reserve element. As far as contemporary Wehrmacht doctrine is concerned, I imagine this was standard procedure, but I really lucked out in getting a higher-quality fast KG than is usually the case with the rarity option on. As a historical note, the Germans had 23 or 24 tank companies at the time, so I took this as not an historical anomaly. For support I generally go for offboard artillery. Composition-wise, this is similar to the Panzerverband Kempf, which in reality didn't see action until the latter stages of the campaign. I find it useful to go ahead and pre-target the closest victory hexes at the beginning, and then adjust fire as necessary. Mind you, I'm still operating in the Polish Campaign, and those guys are definitely tough customers, infantry-wise. I hope to get me some 88s before the French campaign. End of transmission: KG Erwin out.

IKerensky · Post by **IKerensky** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:47 am

I am curently playg a lot of campaign ( as usually ) but there is 2 of my recipe :

Japanese AA unit:
2 inf Compagnie ( second class )
1 eng Compagnie
1 Light tank platoon
2 on map howitzer platoon
3 Heavy AA Gun platton with tracked puller
3 Platoon of every existing AA gun in Japanese OOB

* Not a really overpowerfull mixed, except in defense with High visibility but great fun to play without a lot of tank, and quite handfull in late war :p *

Russian Guard Tank brigade

1 Armored car compagnie
2 Medium light tank compagnie
1 Heavy tank compagnie
1 SPG compagnie
1 Cossaque compagnie
1 Inf platoon for every tank ( Engeneer , guards or tankdesantnikki )
Some partisan forces
3 platoon of SP AA
1 mortar 120 or 107 squad for every tank
Some FB obvserver

* I didn't buy the best tank, I am usually caugth in 1941 with a lot of amphibious tank, an ahndfull of T-28 and perhaps one or 2 KV1. But I tryed to buy at last 1 OB gun battery for every tank. My plan is simple and very russian in style. I light tk cie on each border of the map with AC or Cossaque for reco ( cossaque are one of the best troup for fighting in forest or snow, far better then AC in fact ). They rush the border and close the pincer around the fartest objective. The Heavy tk cie and SPG advance slowly in line in the middle of battlefield behind a rolling barrage of art fire. Every spoted ennemy position is targeted by 3 to 4 mortar. Really sim)ple, really efficient, really russian in style, but a bit boring after fun has passed and you'd better put Fast Art on. also expect to spend some assault without even seeing an ennemy, except in the retreat message :p

DataKing · Post by **DataKing** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:23 pm

Greetings and salutations,

This is the core force for the German campaign that I just started. Seems to work pretty well so far, although I feel like I may be a little light on infantry.

1 Medium Panzer Company (with Panzer Ibs to handle all those Polish Infantry)
1 Motorized Rifle Company (to become mechanized later)
1 Engineer Company
1 Platoon of on-board artillery (75mm Field Howitzers) and a Forward Observer.
1 Platoon of Anti-Tank Guns (I don't like the idea of facing Char Bs with only the 2 88s in my rifle company)
1 Section of AA (should try to get more).
5 Platoons of Wagons (these will later be turned into transportation for the engineers, as well as a platoon of assault guns and/or flame tanks probably).
Recon Group - Armored Car Section and 2 Motorcycle Squads (I am developing new respect for the motorcycle troops). These seem like good mobile recon forces...important when my troops are loaded on trucks or HTs and moving fast.

This seems to work pretty well so far, but we'll see what happens when I run into Pierre.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:43 pm

DataKing: I think the threat of Pierre was pretty much removed with the PZIIIE/37mmATG both given better penetration, as the hull on the S-35 is vulnerable. I'm not so sure about the other French stuff though, should you encounter it.