PT Boat Usefulness

[RhinoDad]

As the Japanese Navy believed that in a war they would be overwhelmed by the US Navy they adopted a strategy of whittling the enemy down as they crossed the Pacific. Hence their use of submarines in a fleet roll and for scouting rather than as anti-merchant marine as the Germans and US did. They went the mini sub route rather than PT type craft as it fit their Naval doctrine of slow defensive attrition before a surface engagement, and then to pick off the stragglers after the battle. The mini subs would be taken out on a sub and released as a force multiplier. Their surface fleets had an offensive doctrine. One of the reasons Japanese submariners were not respected in the Navy as they did not embody the fighting spirit culture of their military.

Subs and mini subs were use in a limited way offensively, examples would be attacks in New South Wales Australia and Pearl Harbor and the incendiary shelling of US northwest forests. But this was quite rare.

US doctrine for PT/Sub use was offensive where as Japan's was defensive. PT are aggressive and offensive by nature so they did not fit well with the Japanese doctrine.

[rustysi]

JWE did have a certain style didn't he.

Miss him very much.

Miss him too.

[Shellshock]

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

I often wondered why the Japanese never invested much in building motor torpedo boats. They're relatively cheap to build and they would have been armed with the best torpedo on the planet at the time. I suppose they didn't fit in with the whole Mahanian Decisive Battle Doctrine though, being too defensive in nature.

The Japanese did build a large number of motor torpedo boats in various classes based on some captured Thornycroft C.M.B. type models. They were built of wood or steel and armed with 18 inch torpedoes and some had depth charges, other depth charge throwers. They had a designation of "T" (T-1, T-23, etc.)and were built in private as well as Navy yards.

I've never found much about their actual use, though. They couldn't have been too successful. Seems like most were regulated to harbor duties or became inoperative due to engine troubles or lack of fuel.

http://www.ptboatworld.com/PT_Boat_Info ... seMTBs.htm

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

I often wondered why the Japanese never invested much in building motor torpedo boats. They're relatively cheap to build and they would have been armed with the best torpedo on the planet at the time. I suppose they didn't fit in with the whole Mahanian Decisive Battle Doctrine though, being too defensive in nature.

I think you would find it a challenge to get the Type 93 onto a MTB given the weight/speed constraints.

Twice the length and the weight of a Mk8 or a Mk13, this would indeed be interesting...[:D]

[Shellshock]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador
Twice the length and the weight of a Mk8 or a Mk13, this would indeed be interesting...

It sounds like those that were built were usually armed with Type 44 (12.75 inch) or Type 91 (18inch) torpedoes

[RangerJoe]

I just wanted to slow down this bombardment TF so my air units can work it over, sometimes there are BBs there. But look at those excellent battle conditions for ducks that can see in the night. These happened after a night torpedo attack by three PBYs did not hit the cruiser:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Kalidjati at 50,99, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Aoba, Torpedo hits 1
DD Sawakaze

Allied Ships
PT-31
PT-32
PT-35

Reduced visibility due to Rain with 0% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Rain and 0% moonlight: 2,000 yards

Night Time Surface Combat, near Kalidjati at 50,99, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Aoba, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Sawakaze

Allied Ships
PT-47, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
PT-48
PT Q-111, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

Low visibility due to Rain with 0% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Rain and 0% moonlight: 2,000 yards

Night Time Surface Combat, near Kalidjati at 50,99, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
F1M2 Pete: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Aoba, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Sawakaze

Allied Ships
PT-33
PT-37, Shell hits 1

Low visibility due to Rain with 0% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Rain and 0% moonlight: 2,000 yards

CA Aoba sunk by PT-33 at 3,000 yards[&o]

There as an ineffective daylight engagement the next day in heavy rain, both sides fled. As you can see, I picked on that heavy cruiser and I lost more war vessels than the enemy so one could state that I lost that series of battles. [8|] [;)]

[RhinoDad]

Japanese Torpedo boats were generally of the style of early allied destroyers, originally called ‘Torpedo Boat Destroyers’ and were in the hundreds of feet in length. They were similar to Allied KV, Frigate, or DE. Though they did make some PT type boats they only produced 500 or so with many of these as Gun boats and were not in the same class as US PT boats. They were built in very small numbers.

The Japanese suffered from poor engine availability and reliability and so had very mixed engines and often poor performance. The fastest was something like 35 knots, many were around 20 knots slow ones were around 15 knots. Most models were produce in the 10s of units. For example the 35 knot one had less than 10 built. They were incredibly small production runs based on how many engines they could dig up; sometimes as little as 6 sometimes as large as 80.

With such slow speeds it takes quite some time to close the often several miles under fire. It would also make you one of the slower boats on the water thereby increasing the difficulty of a successful engagement. Engine failure during an engagement also often has a bad outcome. They were primarily employed as harbor defense. They did not perform well in ASW, one of their primary duties, unreliable engines lead to often poor performance in any combat.

May be off on this but I do not believe there was a recorded instance of one making a torpedo attack and less than 100 were destroyed in combat. Do to their general lack of effectiveness as fuel shortages became an issue most sat unused. Instead the Japanese concentrated on small suicide craft and built something like 6,000 of them. Like the mini sub most of these were held in the home islands.

For patrolling where US would use the PT the Japanese tended to rely on heavily armed barges which were operated by the IJA not IJN.

Perhaps for Hollywood style game play, some pacific war games give Japanese a good number of PT style boats with performances close to their US counterparts. Fortunately, Witp AE strives for a more realistic approach rather than a cartoon or Hollywood movie.

[RangerJoe]

The "Torpedo Boat Destroyers" are completely different than what we are discussing. Informative information, though, and thank you for that.

[RhinoDad]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The "Torpedo Boat Destroyers" are completely different than what we are discussing. Informative information, though, and thank you for that.

That is why only the first two sentences mention TBD type then segwayed to the few small allied style PT/MTB boats built by the Japanese which were being discussed.

Only mentioned the TBD type as they were part of the Japanese MTB classification and were the only ones produced in quantity.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The "Torpedo Boat Destroyers" are completely different than what we are discussing. Informative information, though, and thank you for that.

That is why only the first two sentences mention TBD type then segwayed to the few small allied style PT/MTB boats built by the Japanese which were being discussed.

Only mentioned the TBD type as they were part of the Japanese MTB classification and were the only ones produced in quantity.

I wonder if they bought the engines from the scrapped US TBDs ...aka Devastators! [:D]

[RangerJoe]

The in-game MTBs can be switched between the MTB and the MGB, but it also depends upon the mod. In one mod, someone did put in IJN MTBs with a Long Lance torpedo . . .

[RhinoDad]

Thank you Q-Ball, RangerJoe, BBFanBoy, Ambassador, depollay, PaxMondo, Alfred, and others for your help.

Have had enough game time to see the advice you gave put into action. It has worked out splendidly.

Of course not as well as the examples provided by RangerJoe by then I have much to learn of game mechanics before I would hope to achieve results such as his.

[RangerJoe]

You are welcome.

Joe

[spence]

Not that I've experienced any sort of IJN PT boat effectiveness but I have seen them launch torpedoes, reload and launch them again. In AE they appear to be lumped in with IJN DDs (which did carry reloads) whereas they absolutely did not carry any reloads IRL.

I have to say that it is most frustrating as an Allied Player to have one's PT boats retreat after engaging an un-escorted IJN invasion TF (even when the TF and even boat commanders have been selected for high aggressiveness and naval skill).

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
5. Moonless nights are your friend

ORIGINAL: Leandros
Any escorted cargo or troop transport are very hard to get near.

Not necessarily [:D]

Fresh from the replay of the turn I got this morning:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Kendari at 70,106, Range 9,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Kiso
DD Sanae
E Saga
PB Saiko Maru
xAK Myoko Maru
xAK Shinanogawa Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Kanko Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
xAP Hakone Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Buenos Aires Maru
xAP Huzi Maru

Allied Ships
TM-10
TM-12
TM-13
TM-15, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

Improved night sighting under 100% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 100% moonlight: 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 9,000 yards
Japanese ships attempt to get underway
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
CL Kiso engages TM-10 at 9,000 yards
DD Sanae engages TM-13 at 9,000 yards
E Saga engages TM-10 at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru ,
xAK Kanko Maru , xAK Shinanogawa Maru screened from combat
- escorted by DD Sanae , E Saga
Range closes to 5,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru screened from combat
- escorted by CL Kiso
TM-15 engages xAP Hakone Maru at 5,000 yards
TM-10 engages xAK Kanko Maru at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
TM-12 engages xAP Huzi Maru at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru screened from combat
TM-13 engages xAK Shinanogawa Maru at 2,000 yards
E Saga engages TM-12 at 2,000 yards
TM-10 engages PB Saiko Maru at 2,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru ,
xAK Kanko Maru , xAK Shinanogawa Maru screened from combat
- escorted by DD Sanae , E Saga
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru ,
xAK Kanko Maru , xAK Shinanogawa Maru , xAK Myoko Maru screened from combat
PB Saiko Maru engages TM-15 at 2,000 yards
E Saga engages TM-10 at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru screened from combat
TM-15 sunk by CL Kiso at 3,000 yards
TM-13 engages xAK Shinanogawa Maru at 3,000 yards
E Saga engages TM-12 at 3,000 yards
TM-13 engages xAP Hakone Maru at 3,000 yards
TM-10 engages xAK Kanko Maru at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
TM-12 engages DD Sanae at 2,000 yards
TM-10 engages xAK Kanko Maru at 2,000 yards
De Vryer T. orders Allied TF to disengage
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru screened from combat
- escorted by E Saga
TM-12 engages xAK Shinanogawa Maru at 2,000 yards
TM-13 engages xAK Kanko Maru at 2,000 yards
TM-12 engages xAK Shinanogawa Maru at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru screened from combat
DD Sanae engages TM-13 at 7,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
5. Moonless nights are your friend

ORIGINAL: Leandros
Any escorted cargo or troop transport are very hard to get near.

Not necessarily [:D]

Fresh from the replay of the turn I got this morning:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Kendari at 70,106, Range 9,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Kiso
DD Sanae
E Saga
PB Saiko Maru
xAK Myoko Maru
xAK Shinanogawa Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Kanko Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
xAP Hakone Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Buenos Aires Maru
xAP Huzi Maru

Allied Ships
TM-10
TM-12
TM-13
TM-15, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

Improved night sighting under 100% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 100% moonlight: 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 9,000 yards
Japanese ships attempt to get underway
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
CL Kiso engages TM-10 at 9,000 yards
DD Sanae engages TM-13 at 9,000 yards
E Saga engages TM-10 at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru ,
xAK Kanko Maru , xAK Shinanogawa Maru screened from combat
- escorted by DD Sanae , E Saga
Range closes to 5,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru screened from combat
- escorted by CL Kiso
TM-15 engages xAP Hakone Maru at 5,000 yards
TM-10 engages xAK Kanko Maru at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
TM-12 engages xAP Huzi Maru at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru screened from combat
TM-13 engages xAK Shinanogawa Maru at 2,000 yards
E Saga engages TM-12 at 2,000 yards
TM-10 engages PB Saiko Maru at 2,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru ,
xAK Kanko Maru , xAK Shinanogawa Maru screened from combat
- escorted by DD Sanae , E Saga
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru ,
xAK Kanko Maru , xAK Shinanogawa Maru , xAK Myoko Maru screened from combat
PB Saiko Maru engages TM-15 at 2,000 yards
E Saga engages TM-10 at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru screened from combat
TM-15 sunk by CL Kiso at 3,000 yards
TM-13 engages xAK Shinanogawa Maru at 3,000 yards
E Saga engages TM-12 at 3,000 yards
TM-13 engages xAP Hakone Maru at 3,000 yards
TM-10 engages xAK Kanko Maru at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
TM-12 engages DD Sanae at 2,000 yards
TM-10 engages xAK Kanko Maru at 2,000 yards
De Vryer T. orders Allied TF to disengage
xAP Huzi Maru , xAP Buenos Aires Maru , xAP Hakone Maru screened from combat
- escorted by E Saga
TM-12 engages xAK Shinanogawa Maru at 2,000 yards
TM-13 engages xAK Kanko Maru at 2,000 yards
TM-12 engages xAK Shinanogawa Maru at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
xAP Huzi Maru screened from combat
DD Sanae engages TM-13 at 7,000 yards
Task forces break off...

That TF was shown as trying to get underway- so it was static when attacked. Big disadvantage for the Japanese.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Sure. Being caught like a sitting duck is a big disadvantage for anyone. Just wanted to show that even with 100% moonlight and opposing escorts, you can get lucky if the for.. I mean the dice is with you.

[RangerJoe]

I have a PT boat with the Captain's Naval and Aggression numbers in the 20s. Three turns in a row, he went out and his boat torpedoed a ship. No fancy maneuvering, just go in, torpedo the ship, then leave.[:)]

[BBfanboy]

So to answer the original question, PTs can be totally useless to totally effective or somewhere in between ...[;)]