done with it!

[mogami]

Hi, UV is not done yet. The plan was (is) rather then work on UV and WITP (with divided assets) The team is working on WITP and will back fit bug fixes and new features into UV. So there is more to come.

[akulas]

this game keeps its followers/players because there really isn't another replacement...in the economy of game playing, there is a balance of persistant playtime on the positive side and just plan "putting up" with with the negatives (be they a bore, really wierd crap...like uv has...or just being no challenge and not re-playable). i for one have been playing these type games since the '60s (with cardbord pieces and dice) and quite a few computer based games/simulations (real life simulations) to the present date. we play and buy because in the balance it is worth it to us. the only way to change marketing policies is to not buy and not play. i started this thread with what some may feel is a "pick up my toys and go home tone", that's not the case. i felt (until mogomi offered a workaround) that the aggregate bugs in this game outweighed its value to me. can't say that i've made my mind up yet...but i'm still playing...at least until something better comes along for now. and, no, i probably will not be buying *any* more titles from this manufacturer for some time. i didn't return the game as was my first instinct...and has been discussed to much better degree than we should here...that gets the honest attention of the vendors, not what is posted in these forums regardless of the impression we may be left with.

[Toro]

Just my thoughts:

Rarely have I found a game that is bug-free. Rarely. In fact, I work in the internet, and rarely do I find software that is bug-free. The biggest difference in the end in my mind are those that come from a source that's willing to accept responsibility to mend their product. Yes, I think we all agree that a product should be shelf-ready before heading out the door, but when one is talking about thousands and thousands of lines of code, I remind myself to be the realist I claim to be: ain't gonna be perfect. If a company refuses to let something out the door until it is perfect, well, we probably wouldn't see much product, would we? But, if the company is committed to addressing bugs that are found, then I'm very willing to forgive.

Those of us who started with version 1.0 can attest that UV has seen a GREAT DEAL of improvement since then. That UV isn't perfect is fine; to me, the bugs I'm seeing are quite minimal, odd at times, but nothing that has made me want to even consider trashing it. Hell, most of the bugs might as well be considered reality, as I've seen the Navy and Air Force do some really odd things before...

I know this kind of thinking doesn't satisfy everyone, but remember, the Matrix designers/coders are working on the real game all of us wanted to see in the first place (remember way back when UV wasn't even a product? When WitP -- named something else way back then -- was the product to be released, but then UV came along as a pre-WitP???). And last (please NO ONE take this as a ding, because it isn't), it's just a game. Have fun. So s@#t happens. Hell, my IT department just gave me a headache today; UV's a pal next to that!

[Capitaine]

Toro, your view makes sense ONLY if one agrees with your own premise: "[T]he Matrix designers/coders are working on the real game all of us wanted to see in the first place (WitP)."

I, and I suspect a number of others, bought UV on its own merit with no "obvious" intent to tide me over till WitP became available. Not all of us want to play the entire Pacific War on this scale. Unless, of course, UV was so smooth and fluid as to convince me/us that WitP would be awesome. I am hardly convinced at this time.

UV still has "issues" that cannot be explained. Disappearing assets, "ghost ships", units that have no crew (read the threads), TF's that won't behave... Do I really need this kind of thing multiplied to the entirety of the Pacific theater?

There are so many minute actions that need to be taken in playing this system that they must work virtually flawlessly (within the intent of the design) to be able to be worthy of the player's efforts. As of now, I see this system applied to the entire theater as a nightmare, and would hate to read these boards as players begin to attempt the "campaign" (as we know they'll do; it's inevitable).

I do believe that fixing UV to a point where the players (and not just a few "hard core" UV aficionados who know all the quirks and how to avoid and/or work-around them) are confident that when they issue orders, the expected things will happen. Unless that is the case, WitP is totally out of the question for me.

The bottom line is this: The long term cost-benefit equation for UV and WitP advocates that UV be shown to be a solid, bug-free product before WitP is released. If the issues in UV are shown to be persistent, then one might rightly assume that after some tinkering with WitP, the team will just move on to their next project whether WitP is working or not. It wouldn't be the first time in PC wargames where this has happened. I would MUCH prefer to see a UV proclaimed to be working "as it should" and WitP delayed commensurately than take on faith that UV will be made to work [finally] once WitP is released. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt...

[akulas]

...do i take it that you, as others, are not going to buy these new products based upon the quality of this product (uv)? i've seen other posts along the same lines as yours...seems like the same foundation problems, qc/qa (or lack thereof) and other issues are, in fact, carried forward. just curious.

[Drex]

...do i take it that you, as others, are not going to buy these new products based upon the quality of this product (uv)? i've seen other posts along the same lines as yours...seems like the same foundation problems, qc/qa (or lack thereof) and other issues are, in fact, carried forward. just curious.

I will buy simply because there is nothing else on the market that comes close. Even UV with its problems is still playable and I have spent many enjoyable and frustrating hours with it while other games sit on the shelf. If you are waiting for perfection you will wait forever. However if UV has accomplished anything, it has served as a model and springboard for WitP.

[Capitaine]

akula, I didn't say I "wouldn't buy", but a view by the company that everyone that bought UV also will buy WitP as the "upgrade" is not valid either. I never say never, but I must be honest in saying that known bugs halted my initial play (stuff that was too funky for me to enjoy a game PLUS to recommend my brother with mucho less time to dig into it) and I haven't yet had a good feeling about the "state of the code".

Let my concerns stand as they are. If companies want to "roll the dice", that's their call. I make mine when the time comes. If there were a buy decision today, I'm not in the mood to do so right now. And obviously, I disagree with the "retrofit" posture taken by the development team.

Ahem, perfection? What's your definition?

[akulas]

thanks for the public response to a public question...i'm sure you realize that it wasn't *I* who hinted at perfection. now i'm finding suggestions of cheating made by the game (buildup of unoccupied airfields and the like), i'm beginning to wonder if this is some rehash of an old victory games product (cardboard and dice)...with lots of "chrome" tacked on. not that it matters, but i'm probably far too jaded to expect the current crop of new games to keep my interest for as long as uv has...and far to realistic to think that i'll continue enjoying uv as i discover more of the bad in it. thanks again.

[Drex]

akula, I didn't say I "wouldn't buy", but a view by the company that everyone that bought UV also will buy WitP as the "upgrade" is not valid either. I never say never, but I must be honest in saying that known bugs halted my initial play (stuff that was too funky for me to enjoy a game PLUS to recommend my brother with mucho less time to dig into it) and I haven't yet had a good feeling about the "state of the code".

Let my concerns stand as they are. If companies want to "roll the dice", that's their call. I make mine when the time comes. If there were a buy decision today, I'm not in the mood to do so right now. And obviously, I disagree with the "retrofit" posture taken by the development team.

Ahem, perfection? What's your definition?

I have no definition of perfection. UV has problems but there is no game like it around that can still hold my interest. Still when WitP comes out I will probably drop UV like a hot potatoe.

[akulas]

...done with this game and will erase it from the computers it was installed on...way too buggy, too wierd, too sloppy and having far too many quirks. moreover i am not happy because this game remains tempting/seducing due to its outstanding promise...that it fails to deliver on. it still reminds me of the "Hearts of Iron" game and i classify it as the same...great game if you want to put up with it. i hope that the loyal following it has can (no pun intended) keep it afloat, it obviously is worth something to those who still participate in this forum. the truth is that the majority of people have dropped this "like a hot potato" without comment...i think that its kinda like keeping bc3000 (or whatever) on life support...it would be best to just pull the plug on it. i must agree with the comments posted on the super-sized new (witp , wip, wtf?) upcoming game...more of the same is in store and it is all bad...then again, that sort of thing doesn't stop us from using micro$oft products, does it?

best of luck to all.

[Toro]

This is to no one in particular, and is completely rhetorical, so please don't anyone out there take offense.

I'm continually and completely amazed at the expectation of perfection in the gaming market (note, I say "expectation"). I'm amazed because I don't see it as existing, and with the (what I would call) minor issues with UV, folks are willing to give up. I wonder what games those folks are running to after dumping UV?

Personally, when I talk of unusable games, I speak of Civ3 (pre-fix), Lords of the Realm, 1099 (did anyone ever get that dog to run?), Total War: Shogun (CTDs), Age of Sail (CTDs), Wooden Ships & Iron Men (CTDs and other issues), and the list goes ever on. I wish I could list the games I tossed because they didn't work AT ALL. And, to make matters worse with these things, few of them were even looked at for fixes afterwards. And none of them were as complex and as intriguing as UV, which continued to improve (and I expect will do so after WitP). Lastly, none of these companies were even willing to entertain suggestions for improvement from the field (ie, us) before Matrix came along. Only Paradox seems to mimic the Matrix development ethic these days. Yes, I'd love for a perfect complex-and-engrossing game to come out, but I don't expect it. What I do expect is one that is usable and whose irritating bugs will be ironed out.

It's unfortunate that a few folks have decided to leave UV behind. We've all been given a rather unique opportunity here: to help identify issues which will lead to their fix (I've participated in a few myself already here). This opportunity doesn't arise very often in the computer gaming world. You can leave the game behind, or you can help isolate where that naggling item is, how it's created, how to duplicate it, more than likely see it go away in the future, and see a good game become great. Wish I could have said that about some of those promising concepts I'd seen in the past, but instead simply had to watch them diminish into oblivion. Or, I could go back and reload Total War, and try to get it to run this time... But then, there's always a movie on -- but that script's already written, isn't it?

[pasternakski]

Why pull punches? The guy was a dork, and I'm glad he's gone. He had little comprehension, no knowledge, and even less to say.

[akulas]

< fanboi remarks notwithstanding > again, best of luck to the cadre of persons keeping this game running.

[crsutton]

Ok folk! Nothing else to see here. Lets everybody move on.

[DBLWIDE]

I am done with it too. I got the same responses for the same problems. Unlike that K.V. character it least most people here seemed to want to help though within the bounds of a belief system. Makes me feel like I am dealing with Moonies. Anybody want a copy of Uncommon Valor cheap?

[Sitting Duck]

Naaah don't start please. HOI? I just dropped the darn thing in a pit I thought wouldn't open anymore. I hate games in which you have to dance a whole sh#tload of akward steps just to achieve some sense of realism.

Don't decieve yourself. HOI is severely neglecting:

- reality. Some guy wrote an AAR in which he conquered the (f-A) WORLD in just a year or two. I believe him. Any fool could take Europe playing the Germs, let alone a strategic wargamer.
- patches. Yes, the only way to keep a decent sense of appropiate humility as playing the Germs, a score of custom made patches were offered for download. In it the game would transform into a world in which all 'hexes' are fortresses!
- AI. The Americans never initiate decent D-Day. No, Aussies and Canadians would knock on France every month or so, but America? No, keeps stockpiles of 250+divisions parked in Washington.
- naval battles. Played Germany this one time. Declared war on poland, fine. Next thing I know, the whole *&^$#& British Fleet including Carriers, depicted as a Carrier symbol with 48 underneath it, meaning the number of capital ships in the group, comes sailing thru the Kattegat (Denmark baby, where Denmark almost kisses Sweden. Never been to Scandinavia? Me neither, but still the Kattegat is there, and it is there to stay, so you better get used to it)
- user friendlyness. C'mon, real time strategy what should have been turn based. Good thing to search inovating alleys, but this one surely isn't the one.

Well, so I'm gonna try out this UV thing now, if I can get through the manual that is. But think 3 times before dragging HOI into the arena.

[denisonh]

This is to no one in particular, and is completely rhetorical, so please don't anyone out there take offense.

I'm continually and completely amazed at the expectation of perfection in the gaming market (note, I say "expectation"). I'm amazed because I don't see it as existing, and with the (what I would call) minor issues with UV, folks are willing to give up. I wonder what games those folks are running to after dumping UV?

Personally, when I talk of unusable games, I speak of Civ3 (pre-fix), Lords of the Realm, 1099 (did anyone ever get that dog to run?), Total War: Shogun (CTDs), Age of Sail (CTDs), Wooden Ships & Iron Men (CTDs and other issues), and the list goes ever on. I wish I could list the games I tossed because they didn't work AT ALL. And, to make matters worse with these things, few of them were even looked at for fixes afterwards. And none of them were as complex and as intriguing as UV, which continued to improve (and I expect will do so after WitP). Lastly, none of these companies were even willing to entertain suggestions for improvement from the field (ie, us) before Matrix came along. Only Paradox seems to mimic the Matrix development ethic these days. Yes, I'd love for a perfect complex-and-engrossing game to come out, but I don't expect it. What I do expect is one that is usable and whose irritating bugs will be ironed out.

It's unfortunate that a few folks have decided to leave UV behind. We've all been given a rather unique opportunity here: to help identify issues which will lead to their fix (I've participated in a few myself already here). This opportunity doesn't arise very often in the computer gaming world. You can leave the game behind, or you can help isolate where that naggling item is, how it's created, how to duplicate it, more than likely see it go away in the future, and see a good game become great. Wish I could have said that about some of those promising concepts I'd seen in the past, but instead simply had to watch them diminish into oblivion. Or, I could go back and reload Total War, and try to get it to run this time... But then, there's always a movie on -- but that script's already written, isn't it?

Amen.

There is nothing else on the market to currently satisfy the grognard wargamer. And the most valid point to be made is that there are no perfect products out there.

Matrix is a gaming company about making games for serious wargamers, with an active community that interacts on this forum with Matrix developers and testers with the intent of making the products better.

Somebody point me to place where it is better than this?

[mdiehl]

I've heard of FT coming back to port with enemy units loaded. (but I've not had it occur yet.

Thus leading to a novel way of reducing enemy troop concentrations. I can just hear Chiteng... "just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it shouldn't happen... statistics don't mean anything."

I had similar things happen in GGPW. Once I discovered a Japanese engineering unit on board some of my small American APs. For kicks I unloaded them in Timor, guarded (cause I wasn't sure what would happen) by the Phillippine Infantry Division. Sure enough, on unloading and activating the unit I discovered that they were attached to Asiatic Fleet, and on the following turn the Timor air base ratcheted from 1 to 2.

I kept wishing for a "rename unit" function. Wanted to call them the "Nipponese Democratic Construction Battalion."