Judy or Grace

[Dili]

Some of us do house rules regarding this

CVE's some of them at least have the added problem of short runway, while Shinyo had a 180m length - it could operate Zeros and Jill and probably D4Y. Hosho also when upgraded with a lengthier flight deck from 1944. Taiyos instead had only 150m it could operate B5N, but not others.
In my post above my more restricted list is based on data collected about carriers, some with a real complement of B7 Grace listed. Ibuki was supposed to get 12, Ikoma an Unryu evolution was to get 27, but the complement seems to be a very large bomber complement contrary to post Midway practice of increasing the fighter complement.

[geofflambert]

One consideration is that it will take a while to have enough aircrews trained in both bombing and torpedoing and search and ASW to take full advantage of the Grace. But that extra range is awfully desirable. Another way to look at it, though, is Grace vs. Jill vs. Kate. Kates can search at night but Jills can't until you get the 2a with radar. Graces can't search at night at all. I believe searching at night becomes more and more important the later in the war it is. Yet another consideration is that no matter what you build they're not all going to be used on carriers and the Grace is just too darned versatile not to make a lot of them. They're a heck of a lot better than Lillies, too.

[geofflambert]

Another thing. Sinking CAs and BBs will be expensive and won't win the war. Sinking troop ships with troops aboard and CV/CVEs is much more important. Those 250kg dings will add up to some serious repair yard time for CAs and BBs, anyway.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Another thing. Sinking CAs and BBs will be expensive and won't win the war. Sinking troop ships with troops aboard and CV/CVEs is much more important. Those 250kg dings will add up to some serious repair yard time for CAs and BBs, anyway.

Geoff you make some great points there. and the extra range. i've been lucky in my game so far and have sunk (FOW) 6 CVs, 13 BBs and 12 CAs and Vals/Judys had no role in the sinkings.

I kind of like having my 34knt CVs in a TF with 35knt CAs and 38knt DDs making 14 hexes a day with torpedo striking power of 10 hexes more and bomb striking power of 12/13 more. That's a pretty good reach right now.

[geofflambert]

Speaking of torpedo planes, visa vie Grace, well ...

If you flew, Peggy (T)oo
Then you'd know what I know too
Oh Peggy, my Peggy (T)oo
Oh though I love you Grace
Tor-pe-dos go with Peggy (T)oo

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Speaking of torpedo planes, visa vie Grace, well ...

If you flew, Peggy (T)oo
Then you'd know what I know too
Oh Peggy, my Peggy (T)oo
Oh though I love you Grace
Tor-pe-dos go with Peggy (T)oo

[8|]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Another thing. Sinking CAs and BBs will be expensive and won't win the war. Sinking troop ships with troops aboard and CV/CVEs is much more important. Those 250kg dings will add up to some serious repair yard time for CAs and BBs, anyway.

Geoff you make some great points there. and the extra range. i've been lucky in my game so far and have sunk (FOW) 6 CVs, 13 BBs and 12 CAs and Vals/Judys had no role in the sinkings.

I kind of like having my 34knt CVs in a TF with 35knt CAs and 38knt DDs making 14 hexes a day with torpedo striking power of 10 hexes more and bomb striking power of 12/13 more. That's a pretty good reach right now.

You do know that some people like to have it nice and slow, they don't like it when a man is too quick.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

But going back to the important question of Judy or Grace. I would rather have a Grace Kelly than a Judy Garland! [:D]

But ...

Oh Joey Boy, the pipes the pipes are callin'
From Glen to Glen, and Alf and Dave and Pete.


Judy had some pipes, best until Linda R.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

But going back to the important question of Judy or Grace. I would rather have a Grace Kelly than a Judy Garland! [:D]

But ...

Oh Joey Boy, the pipes the pipes are callin'
From Glen to Glen, and Alf and Dave and Pete.


Judy had some pipes, best until Linda R.

Yes,Judy had pipes. But she said "There is no place like home!" but never went back to her hometown.

But Princess Grace had CLASS!

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


... Judy had some pipes, best until Linda R.

Depends on the criteria applied.

In that time frame, plenty of votes would be directed to:

Doris Day
Ella Fitzgerald
Edith Piaf


Not forgetting

Billie Holiday
and the underrated Julie London

Alfred

[PaxMondo]

Ella and Billie; yeah. Ella for the power, Billie for the angst ...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

Has anyone ever skipped the judy and just gone for the grace. i realize it's 2x250kg instead of 1x500kg or 1x800kg but i like the idea of having the torpedo option with the grace. besides the judy seems awfully fragile so far. The grace has better maneuverability and better durability. It doesn't matter what the load is if the plane can't get through.

Last version of the Judy due to the 800kg bomb. It's a ship killer (all ships) and you will get way more hits with the 800kg bombs than you will get torp hits. The Grace is more durable but in late war you will suffer more Graces lost in their torp runs than you will lose less durable Judies in the dive bombing role if you directly compare it. The low level attack run is causing insane losses and torp hits will go down dramatically late war which is when you will get the Grace. People always remember their Nell/Betty/Kate torp attacks of early 42 when they get insane hit rates but that goes down to a minimum in 44+ even if you have highly skilled pilots. And don't forget all those wasted attack runs due to attacking from stern or bow, that is only true for torp bobmers. You will have an average of 1/4 - 1/3 torp bombers wasted due to a wrong attack angle which is not true for dive bombers. The last version of the Judy can be available at least a year earlier than the Grace.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


... Judy had some pipes, best until Linda R.

Depends on the criteria applied.

In that time frame, plenty of votes would be directed to:

Doris Day
Ella Fitzgerald
Edith Piaf


Not forgetting

Billie Holiday
and the underrated Julie London

Alfred

Alfred,

I agree with you.

Joe

[Ambassador]

For the time frame and the relevance with our subject, I’ll pick Hedy Lamarr.

Plus, at the time of Pearl Harbor, she’s freshly divorced from Gene Markey.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

For the time frame and the relevance with our subject, I’ll pick Hedy Lamarr.

Plus, at the time of Pearl Harbor, she’s freshly divorced from Gene Markey.

Not only was she very beautiful, she as very, and I mean very, intelligent!

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

For the time frame and the relevance with our subject, I’ll pick Hedy Lamarr.

Plus, at the time of Pearl Harbor, she’s freshly divorced from Gene Markey.

Not only was she very beautiful, she as very, and I mean very, intelligent!

Indeed.

There’s a documentary on Netflix (not available in my country, sadly), but it might be of interest to those who’d want to learn more.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/04/hedy-lamarr-documentary-clip

[Randy Stead]

She came up with the idea of rapid frequency hopping for radios as a means of securing communications. I have not seen that documentary but I would think her work in that area will be mentioned.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


... Judy had some pipes, best until Linda R.

Depends on the criteria applied.

In that time frame, plenty of votes would be directed to:

Doris Day
Ella Fitzgerald
Edith Piaf


Not forgetting

Billie Holiday
and the underrated Julie London

Alfred

I meant as far as projection without yelling. But yes, yay! Billie Holliday (and Louis Armstrong).

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Not getting Judy will leave you with Vals for a long time, something like all of 1943.

true jdsrae, i figure grace in 10/3/43 vs 2/1/43 for judy 3. judy 4 takes a while

Even just having the D4Y1 is worthwhile. The Val was outdated on 12/7/1941.

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Second problem is that you have that torpedo option with the Grace. Have you tried torpedo attacks against late-war (or even mid-war) Allied flak ?[;)]

Look at the Netties : their durability is 35/36, yet they still get shot down quite a lot when facing CAP or decent flak. Even the Grace’s 30 is way lower.

And regarding Maneuver, remember that speed influences the actual agility, so the 2 more points of the Grace won’t dramatically improve survivability when the opposing fighters are way faster. Vals have way better Maneuver than either Judy or Grace, and a Durability between theirs, yet are killed in droves by the end of ‘42 or early ‘43. Grace won’t come before the Allied CAP uses F6F, yet you may field Judie’s when only F4F-4 are available - and those are slower than either a Judy or a Grace, leaving a sweet spot between the Judy’s arrival and the first Hellcats.

And finally, when not using the torpedo, being stuck with 2x250kg will see your attacks unable to penetrate a CA’s armored deck.

They do better than dive bombers, largely because their shots hit harder.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

To me the 2x 250kg is a deal breaker; you need something that can hurt a Battleship. For much the same reason, the VAL is a plane that needs to be replaced ASAP, and that means the D4Y1.

I would build D4Y1, but I also would research the D4Y4, with the 800kg BB-killer bomb

Another consideration: The Grace, while worth building, will be a strain to industry if you build in quantities you need for the whole IJN. The reason is engines; it uses the Ha-45, which has many demands on it from multiple models, while the D4Y3 and D4Y4 use the Ha-33, and engine that you will likely have some surplus of in late war, as you are no longer building alot of models that use the Ha-33

Even the 500kg bomb carried by the regular Judy is a good enough reason to upgrade.

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

i was just wondering if anybody had real game experience where both judys and graces are attacking and they could confirm that the judys get knocked down in larger numbers that would be enough to justify the lighter load of the grace.

i've read some aars where that appears to be the case but i can't be sure

They both die in droves.

Train up lots of pilots, and build lots of spares. Use your "this is going to cost me 200 VPs in downed planes to launch this" strikes sparingly.