A Schlieffen Plan study

[Chernobyl]

Sure PM me and we can do a practice france attack and defense

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: Dazo
Did you attack Bruxelles with another corps before attacking with the Aachen corps ?

I think the difference is I was attacking with my Aachen corps (the one closest that still has one movement point left) SECOND and you attack with it FIRST.

Sometimes I was able to have one movement point remaining, but only when I attacked with the Aachen corps FIRST.

No idea why that would make a difference. You'd think if there was any difference the second attack would be "easier" because some of those Belgians are already dead.

[Chernobyl]

So you actually improved my attack into France slightly, assuming I get lucky with that Aachen corps. Thank you Dazo!

I tested and it worked 2 out of 5 times. The good part is I can always retreat the corps I have sitting in Liege in case it doesn't work, because I like to put Von Kluck in the Liege fort hex for maximum supply of my army units. So in other words, there's no downside to adding the Dazo Shuffle maneuver to my currently preferred attack plan.

Besides getting an extra attack on Brussels in, it's nice to have one strong corps north of Brussels that I don't normally have.

As a bonus here is a screenshot of what my attack looks like on a good day. I destroyed one French corps in the south, and those bottom two unmoved corps I actually rail over to Serbia, but you can also march one up into the Ardennes if you prefer. I rail in one detachment to guard the Mulhausen fort (don't use the Marines unit it can die to a French attack)

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Hello...here's a slight variation of a strong push trending a little further north towards Lille. (will edit in details later..and unfortunately didn't screen shot the finish of turn one here..but this was done in a MP Sept 2020)

Edit:

This is a variant Schlieffen I used to take Ypres and then Boulogne the next turn. He attacked Reims, and dislodged the cavalry there. He panicked and did not contest Lille but pulled out his Belgium HQ and a corp.

On my south wing...I entrenched the line..but the north wing pushed hard, by-passing Antwerp..and engaged in attrition combat. By turn 3..I held the Somme line to Verdun sans Reims. By the 4th turn..with the 6 reserve corps in addition..I hit his Fort Line killing 3 French corps..and dug in for the season. I retook Reims and engaged in attrition warfare from the safety of trenches. I also mauled both of his UK corps.

He lost 7 Fr corps, the Marine unit, a cavalry corp and had a lot of severely damaged units. I lost none and did not repair many units till after the fandango was done in Oct. By then, France was in shock...looking at the reports he spent All his money on rebuilding and repairing units, and None on research....none.

This outcome satisfied my 1914 objectives..France was crippled for well into 1915..where I faced dirt trenches from concrete entrenchments..and I could attend to other problems in the east.

Like I had posted...this is one example from a pbem game last Sept 2020 in in no way is an optimal Schlieffen Plan..but this one worked good enough for me.

[Chernobyl]

It's dangerous to go for Lille especially if you don't cover Reims with a cavalry in the marshes. French can take Reims on their first turn and kill your supply. You can either go for the Loos mine instead of Lille and then you have a supply route to your troops in case Reims dies, or go for Lille and screen Reims, but you can't Leave Reims as a supply bottleneck and just hope France doesn't capture it (especially with a cavalry unit), unless you enjoy taking attrition damage and not being able to move. Missing out on capturing Lille immediately does suck a bit, but it's actually very difficult for the Entente to hold if you just bypass/encircle it with cavalry temporarily and clear out Belgium. I usually wind up encircling Lille or they evacuate.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

It's dangerous to go for Lille especially if you don't cover Reims with a cavalry in the marshes. French can take Reims on their first turn and kill your supply. You can either go for the Loos mine instead of Lille and then you have a supply route to your troops in case Reims dies, or go for Lille and screen Reims, but you can't Leave Reims as a supply bottleneck and just hope France doesn't capture it (especially with a cavalry unit), unless you enjoy taking attrition damage and not being able to move. Missing out on capturing Lille immediately does suck a bit, but it's actually very difficult for the Entente to hold if you just bypass/encircle it with cavalry temporarily and clear out Belgium. I usually wind up encircling Lille or they evacuate.

Edit: Hi, posted more detail of that episode with the map above. Yeah, I agree with what your saying here. That example was from a game against a good opponent..and I screen shoot good plays for both sides when I see one...and I got a s%#t ton of them.[:D]

When I saw this Schlieffen Study....I dug around to find one I pulled off that worked well enough. It was a little off the cuff but I figured it was a good sample of what can be done. A lot of folks can't make it pass Brussels for goodness sakes!

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
A lot of folks can't make it pass Brussels for goodness sakes!

Yeah I did notice that on youtube

I think a lot of people either think you need double layered troops for defense in 1914 or they are trying to attack like it's 1941 and they have stukas and panzers

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
A lot of folks can't make it pass Brussels for goodness sakes!

Yeah I did notice that on youtube

I think a lot of people either think you need double layered troops for defense in 1914 or they are trying to attack like it's 1941 and they have stukas and panzers

That trips up WiE and WaW players every time....when they drift over here to give it a go. [:D]

[Dazo]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
A lot of folks can't make it pass Brussels for goodness sakes!

Yeah I did notice that on youtube

I think a lot of people either think you need double layered troops for defense in 1914 or they are trying to attack like it's 1941 and they have stukas and panzers

That trips up WiE and WaW players every time....when they drift over here to give it a go. [:D]

Well tripping on barbed wire is what it's all about on this side [:D] .

Nice to see others going at it in the West.

Practicing with Chernobyl to look at some moves so here is some screens:

Chernobyl took advantage of scripted units appearing between turn 1 & 2 (blue arrows / red circles for units unable to move on Entente turn) to build his defensive line while trying to isolate my advanced units.
He sent the belgian HQ to Boulogne, forcing french marines do deploy outside of the town to cover it and link with the belgian detachment appearing in Ypres. Only gap was between Ypres and Anvers with no ZoCs (two detachments) so I was able to advance there.

He managed to destroy the german corps NE of Reims (green circle, 3 infantry corps attacks, red dot units) with a half star of experience and attached to level 6 HQ. I'll try to put a full star with von Kluck (experienced lvl 7) some time to see what kind of difference it makes.
However he couldn't cut supply despite advancing a cavalry (appearing in Chartres) there and "escaping" the belgian corps from Bruxelles to Loos mines. It was because control of hexes with green dots went to Germans at the end of his turn (more units/locations around them).
Note: the belgian move to Loos mines isn't always possible since there should be a german corps on the way depending on combat rolls and forcemarch moves.

Here is the supply situation at the start of my second turn:


It allowed me to counterattack in several places though I had to chose between several options and think about the best way to organize my moves:

Decided to ignore the BEF to keep pressure on Belgians while counterattacking french spearhead.
Isolated Anvers while targeting Ypres detachment (appears there so it's unentrenched) to speed up the fall of Belgium.
Destroyed the remnants from Bruxelles to establish a straight line.
Had to chose between entrenching at Lille or capturing Ypres and entrenching there (some so-so rolls can make you short on units/moves).

French spearhead was a bit harder to deal with than expected (high supply and low losses) but I managed to destroy a cav and an inf corps while recapturing two hexes (NE Reims and NW Verdun) though I had to vacate a swamp hex near Paris to cover my moves.

One consequence of Chernobyl using 4 units in his Reims counterattack was leaving gaps in the south where I was able to capture Nancy. I hesitated a bit at first but had 4-5 corps available to attack with starting odds of 2-2 so it was enough to at least try 1 or 2 attacks and see the results.

Final screenshot with supply at the end of my turn:


End result was 4 Entente corps destroyed (3 inf, 1 cav) and 2 detachments for 1 german inf corps.

We decided to restart with the same opening to try other Entente moves.
So far, I believe taking Lille presents higher risks and higher benefits while going for Loos mines seems to be safer with less complicated moves to do on turn 2.

[Chernobyl]

Yeah I need to take Reims itself and/or put the Belgian strength 1 corps in a different hex to cause you to actually lose supply. I didn't realize German units would auto-occupy certain hexes and I wasn't certain when exactly supply is calculated in relation to that.

So in our second practice round I will attempt to take Reims

Edit/Update: You can't really take Reims when there is screening cavalry to the south. Not without insane luck, even if you buy the best general. So I settled on cutting off supply to Reims. They will still have supply down there, just not very much. Not sure if it's worth it (Entente has to sacrifice a couple units to do it) but it should make for an interesting screenshot!

By the way I need to credit Zarevic he is the one who took out Reims and wrecked the earlier version of my attack. The cavalry screen to the south in those marsh hexes seems to fix the issue. That's an innovation that I believe both I and Dazo arrived at independently.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

First, thanks to both of you for pursuing this study further. These examples are fascinating to say the least..so more please!

The Reims issue in particular is something I've internally debated with my self when doing a Schlieffen, (Which I ALWAYS do in a pbem match.) This example somewhat validates my example posted earlier on this thread..but only somewhat. A lot depends on what and how your opponent reacts, and every match I've been in with different folks presents different opportunities and dilemmas.

In this first example, seeing a one two punch (Belgium first left hook, Nancy-Fort Line right jab) would be devastating to France..who will have to make the hard decision about balancing money spent on replacing losses and research going into the winter.

Since I play the Entente more than the Central Powers in this game in pbem matches (which is odd because in the past I always wanted Central Powers or Axis over the good guys haha), I am really looking forward to see what else both of you come up with in this Schlieffen Plan Study.

cheers

[Chernobyl]

Dazo and I will come up with the optimal attack strategy and then the next step will be to compare it to those strategies which don't declare war on Belgium (which apparently is a very popular strategy).

I've never NOT attacked Belgium so I am interested in anyone's comments are suggestions on the advantages of the other strategy.

But I do believe we can all agree that the Belgium/Schlieffen attacks are more "fun" though

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Yeah..interested to see how a Russia/Serbia First would work between optimal players in the future, though I think not enough data can be gathered on that one to make a conclusion unless you two can bang it out to spring 1915 at least.

btw..Yes, in seems the Russia First strategy is very popular...but from my experience at least, it's a usually a war loser. But..then maybe I'm holding that opinion because I haven't seen it done right.

Ignoring Russia and staying on the defensive for too long can also be a war loser..and Russia is a glass cannon somewhat. If Novo-Georgievsk, Warsaw, Ivanograd fall..its a serious NM loss for Russia. Add in Vilna and Brest-Litovsk, and Russia crumbles like a cookie.

Anyway..this is the Schlieffen Plan study so I better not go on about Russia till you all get that done. )

[Taxman66]

By using the Recon bomber on Liege, prior to the initial attack, you have a pretty good chance of knocking the defending down to 1. Then you can use an Inf that doesn't have to leave an AP to move away to finish it off.

Here is a more conservative attack variant.
I used the other CAV to reaches Reims with it's last AP, so the other CAV can attack Brussels from the SW and still move into the Loos mines. Alternately, it could take Lille but then there are fewer hexes to exploit into via Force March.

[Dazo]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

By using the Recon bomber on Liege, prior to the initial attack, you have a pretty good chance of knocking the defending down to 1. Then you can use an Inf that doesn't have to leave an AP to move away to finish it off.

Here is a more conservative attack variant.
I used the other CAV to reaches Reims with it's last AP, so the other CAV can attack Brussels from the SW and still move into the Loos mines. Alternately, it could take Lille but then there are fewer hexes to exploit into via Force March.

Nice tweak with the bomber Taxman66, leaves a bit more room to maneuver for France and two free hexes near Reims but german units have secure supply and are kept together for the next strike .

[Dazo]

Here is our next try with Chernobyl. He used the UK bomber to isolate my advanced units but Reims still provided some supply so only 1 cavalry corps suffered from attrition (2 steps).
Taking Reims with a cavalry screen south of it is impossible on turn 1.



Got bad rolls all over the place on turn 2 but still managed to take Nancy, Ypres and Bruxelles while besieging Antwerp.
Take note of the Sedan hex NW of Verdun, a french mobilized corps appeared there at the end of my turn making things a bit troublesome.



Overall, Germans suffered a bit more than last time but reached their objectives on both flanks while the center turned into a slugfest.
(MPPs losses were more or less the same for both sides but NM losses favored Germany heavily at 91% to 100%).
Once again, notice the two empty hexes, Sedan and the one N of Châlons, 2 mobilised french corps appeared there at the end of my turn complicating things again.



Final result after Chernobyl last push to see how far a full french counterattack could go (french NM in free fall at 88%):


Conclusion:
- France can't sustain an offensive for long at the start of the war, Germany can take more losses (units and MPPs) while replacing them faster (and still be able to invest in trench tech for later).
- It's difficult for France to cut supply for advanced german units but can still cause trouble by counterattacking though it isn't wise to take too many units from the right flank to do it.
- So far, it seems better to entrench and form a continuous line while linking with UK and Belgium units.

Of course, things can change depending on what happens in the East as I used all german reinforcements to deal with french counterttacks as best as I could. Still could have spared at least a couple of corps by entrenching earlier or not attacking Nancy / the southern flank.

We'll try that in our next practice [8D].

[mdsmall]

Hi Dazo,

This is an amazing piece of work - thank you for writing it and sharing it. I recently posted a question on the main WW1 Forum asking if anyone tried executing the Schlieffen Plan and Christolos pointed me to your study.

I just tried clicking on the filedropper link to download the pdf and receiving a warning from my computer that the certificate for this link had expired five days ago. I am not sure what that means, but perhaps you could refresh the link somewhat. I would like to download and read it carefully in sharp print, rather than in blurry type on my screen.

Many thanks in advance,

Michael

[Dazo]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Hi Dazo,

This is an amazing piece of work - thank you for writing it and sharing it. I recently posted a question on the main WW1 Forum asking if anyone tried executing the Schlieffen Plan and Christolos pointed me to your study.

I just tried clicking on the filedropper link to download the pdf and receiving a warning from my computer that the certificate for this link had expired five days ago. I am not sure what that means, but perhaps you could refresh the link somewhat. I would like to download and read it carefully in sharp print, rather than in blurry type on my screen.

Many thanks in advance,

Michael

Hi mdsmall,

Thanks for letting me know, I updated the link in the first post.
Here it is: PDF

Chernobyl and I practiced a bit on both sides so some things/moves may be slightly outdated in the pdf but it's still a good start. Enjoy the read [:)] .

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Just had to review this epic thread on The Schlieffen Plan and bump it up to the top in the WarRoom here so others may see it. Have to brush up on this again. Can't believe its been a year...

Time for some practice runs. [8D]

[Goodenough]

I'm new to the game and really enjoying it. I would love to have the guide in pdf form but I can't get the download to work.

Can anybody share the pdf again?