Do the Italians mobilise too quickly in 1915?

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

In my latest game against the AI (Entente), it has sent a tank up into the mountains! As we used to say, "Far out, man!"[:)]

And just before the end of the game a second tank unit appeared next to the other one (in one of the hexes near "Alto Adige"). And this was after I had broken out through the Trentino and captured Brescia! Ridiculous really. The tanks would not be able to operate in those hexes. It raises another question about whether tanks should be able to enter mountains at all. Maybe only if there is a road too, or not at all?

[stockwellpete]

At the moment it sounds like the best thing we can do for Trento is to make it a mountain hex and instead of giving the Austro-Hungarians 3x Detachments when they rebuff Italian demands, given them 2x Detachments and 1x Mountain Corps (in Trento). It sounds like that would be stronger than changing Trento to a fortified town in a non-mountainous hex and putting a standard Infantry Corps unit there when they say "No" to the Italians.

I am still very much in favour of making the mountains "impassable" at Alto Adige to prevent a broad front developing here in games against the AI.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

No I am part of your consensus! I just felt like I have made too many "demanding" sounding posts lately so I wanted to make a joke, not at your expense!

But I am curious were you able to easily take Trent with just mass Italian corps assaults and that's it? I haven't really tested it. But if that's the case then it really does need to be a stronger defense hex.

Consider that the Central Powers can't really do anything more than just stick a corps in Trent and just hope for the best. They can't advance to gain space/leverage because the Italians have the opportunity to occupy the border mountain hexes. The only way to change the situation is artillery, which takes time.

Not saying the overall situation is unfair in Italy, but maybe add some reasonable breathing space for a NM objective.

Perhaps instead of making Trent a fortress town, I might slightly edit the border and add some fort ring hexes like Switzerland gets. Padua is actually south of Venice so it makes sense to move that town and perhaps the railroad one hex south. I added a picture of what the new forts might look like. They stick out and don't really present a serious threat to Italy in terms of an austrian breakout, but at the same time they make a direct assault on Trent less feasable. Not sure if it's a completely fair, balanced and historically acceptable border but it was what I came up with.

Chernobyl, with respect..this would be real bad for Italy. They are weak as it is actually and these two parrot beaks could turn into bear paws soon enough! [:D]

Those two spots are on mountainous terrain that Italy needs to entrench on to keep 'Vandals' out of the Po Valley, not just to hazard Trento

[Chernobyl]

Well maybe just the western hex then? The main problem for the whole theater is there just aren't quite enough hexes

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Why not just this? Trento as a fortress. No change of borders, (at least, till the war starts that is [;)]).

It would make the CP player feel a little more secure, and if the Italians take it, then the Po Valley would be safer from an offensive in that sector and one Italy's strategic and political objectives will be met at a higher cost they usually don't pay as it is now.

A Fortress here would also give both sides even more incentive to hold Trento and even try to take it back if it is lost. Also, it seems to me this would be more realistic historically as Austria-Hungary didn't lose Trento till Nov 1918 with AH's collapse.

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Why not just this? Trento as a fortress. No change of borders, (at least, till the war starts that is [;)]).

It would make the CP player feel a little more secure, and if the Italians take it, then the Po Valley would be safer from an offensive in that sector and one Italy's strategic and political objectives will be met at a higher cost they usually don't pay as it is now.

A Fortress here would also give both sides even more incentive to hold Trento and even try to take it back if it is lost. Also, it seems to me this would be more realistic historically as Austria-Hungary didn't lose Trento till Nov 1918 with AH's collapse.

Which is stronger?

Trento as a fortress with an Infantry Corp in it, or Trento as a Mountain hex with a Mountain Corps in it?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Why not just this? Trento as a fortress. No change of borders, (at least, till the war starts that is [;)]).

It would make the CP player feel a little more secure, and if the Italians take it, then the Po Valley would be safer from an offensive in that sector and one Italy's strategic and political objectives will be met at a higher cost they usually don't pay as it is now.

A Fortress here would also give both sides even more incentive to hold Trento and even try to take it back if it is lost. Also, it seems to me this would be more realistic historically as Austria-Hungary didn't lose Trento till Nov 1918 with AH's collapse.

Which is stronger?

Trento as a fortress with an Infantry Corp in it, or Trento as a Mountain hex with a Mountain Corps in it?

I'm not sure, but you would want it as a Fortress because of its resource value I would presume. Anyway, that entire area was heavily fortified. As things stand right now..its just a town in game and doesn't get the mountain defensive bonus. I'm starting to lean to the fort model.

Also, I have been relooking at your suggestion about the Alto Adige. The problem is of course, limited space already there to operate. Maybe on a different scale it would work...not sure but am fooling around with it from this end. (Thats in between 3 mp games plus RL fandangos and wifey 'honey do's" haha)

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

I'm not sure, but you would want it as a Fortress because of its resource value I would presume. Anyway, that entire area was heavily fortified. As things stand right now..its just a town in game and doesn't get the mountain defensive bonus. I'm starting to lean to the fort model.

I am wondering whether making Trento a Mountain hex is viable too. Given that the defensive bonuses are not cumulative - and that the three square next to Trento that the Italians can initially occupy with their Infantry Corps units are all Mountain hexes, would the combat calculations benefit the Austro-Hungarians more if they defended with a Mountain Corps? The problem is that as soon as the Italians get an Artillery unit upgraded, they can put it 2 hexes away from Trento and it is bound to fall. So anything that is done in this area also depends on an artillery adjustment too.

Also, I have been relooking at your suggestion about the Alto Adige. The problem is of course, limited space already there to operate. Maybe on a different scale it would work...not sure but am fooling around with it from this end. (Thats in between 3 mp games plus RL fandangos and wifey 'honey do's" haha)

Even if just the one hex with "Alto Adige" on it was made impassable then that would be enough to separate Trentino from Isonzo and prevent the AI from developing a broad front offensive in the area.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

I'm not sure, but you would want it as a Fortress because of its resource value I would presume. Anyway, that entire area was heavily fortified. As things stand right now..its just a town in game and doesn't get the mountain defensive bonus. I'm starting to lean to the fort model.

I am wondering whether making Trento a Mountain hex is viable too. Given that the defensive bonuses are not cumulative - and that the three square next to Trento that the Italians can initially occupy with their Infantry Corps units are all Mountain hexes, would the combat calculations benefit the Austro-Hungarians more if they defended with a Mountain Corps? The problem is that as soon as the Italians get an Artillery unit upgraded, they can put it 2 hexes away from Trento and it is bound to fall. So anything that is done in this area also depends on an artillery adjustment too.

Also, I have been relooking at your suggestion about the Alto Adige. The problem is of course, limited space already there to operate. Maybe on a different scale it would work...not sure but am fooling around with it from this end. (Thats in between 3 mp games plus RL fandangos and wifey 'honey do's" haha)

Even if just the one hex with "Alto Adige" on it was made impassable then that would be enough to separate Trentino from Isonzo and prevent the AI from developing a broad front offensive in the area.

The thing is, Trento generates MMP's and supply...take that away, and just say its a mountain for defensive reasons diminishes Trento as it is, doesn't it? Plus that resource is tied to NM for both states.

btw..which hex would you propose again for the impassable hex. You had named a few. I could play around with that in a personal mod just for these problems that are being discussed dealing with just this front. Might take a few days or so but my curiosity is up haha.

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

The thing is, Trento generates MMP's and supply...take that away, and just say its a mountain for defensive reasons diminishes Trento as it is, doesn't it? Plus that resource is tied to NM for both states.

Yes, I don't want to take that away. So if Trento is in a Mountain hex, it loses those attributes, does it? So in that case, a Fortified Town in a normal hex seems a better option. There were forts there so that would be historically accurate.

btw..which hex would you propose again for the impassable hex. You had named a few. I could play around with that in a personal mod just for these problems that are being discussed dealing with just this front. Might take a few days or so but my curiosity is up haha.

It is hex 171.89. Where the words "Alto Adige" are. That might be enough on its own to improve things. Second hex could be 170,89 which is immediately east of Bruneck, but that may not be necessary.

[stockwellpete]

In my latest game playing as Entente against the AI on Veteran level, when Italy joined the war I got 2x HQ and 9x Corps with 2x Detachments. Two of the Corps were at half strength. I think it is probably too many. 1x HQ and 6x Corps with 2x Detachments might be enough for starters as Italy was hoping to fight a limited war against Austri-Hungary at first. The other units could arrive in the Production queue later in 1915.

[Chernobyl]

In my limited games against human Italy I haven't ever experienced them doing a big attack against Austria. I've seen them try to send Italian units to help Serbia once, but mostly a whole lot of sitting around waiting for me to make the first move.

Italy is definitely slightly behind in tech, they tend to have even worse tech than my Ottomans. But generally it isn't even the lack of tech which is a problem. Austrian artillery shows up and they inevitably lose Udine and then Padua+Venice. The only question is how quickly. This route is sweet for Austria because it damages Italian NM but also provides substantial boosts for Austrian NM.

All this is in a scenario where I do rail/walk over a decent Austrian army to Italy. If Austria were truly on the ropes she might not have those units to spare and Italy might be staring at entrenched detachments. Generally Austria can spare at least one HQ due to the simple fact that if, worst case scenario, Austria has lost many corps and is in trouble, then at least they don't have too many corps to command and you haven't over-saturated your HQ! So off one goes to Italy.

So yeah I haven't felt threatened by 1915 Italy so far. I feel like they are the ones struggling to defend. Again I think there may be a big difference between what we experience vs the AI due to more MPP and possibly some free AI units.

[shri]

My opponent slammed into Trentino despite me putting the AlpenKorps with trenches there. He used the entire Italian starting army of 5 full corps to smash it and overrun.
Then he used the 3 french cavalry to guard the northern flank, result is Austria is now nearly Kaput, too many weak detachments about to die at the hands of a combined assault.

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: shri

My opponent slammed into Trentino despite me putting the AlpenKorps with trenches there. He used the entire Italian starting army of 5 full corps to smash it and overrun.
Then he used the 3 french cavalry to guard the northern flank, result is Austria is now nearly Kaput, too many weak detachments about to die at the hands of a combined assault.

I am hopeful that Trentino will be made a Fortified Town in the next update. Making that change certainly discourages the AI from attacking it.

[shri]

My opponent was Human, i do hope the Italian mobilisation is slowed down and Trentino made a strong Fortress so that it survives when you place a Corps there.
In real life, Trentino never fell till the Austrians completely collapsed despite several offensives in that direction.
Right now, Isonzo and Trentino battles seem too easy for Italy.

TLDR- Italy needs a nerf to showcase it's bad performance in WW1.