Trento and Alpine Front edit

[OldCrowBalthazor]

This is a small mod I made based on discussions with Stockwellpete, Chernobyl, and others concerning the weaknesses the Austro-Hungarians have on their border with Italy.

Changes:

1) Made Trento a Fortress.(ent 3)
2) Made one hex of the Alta Adige High Mountains. (ent 3)

Will be testing this out from the Central Powers p.o.v. in a hotseat first, then the Entente second.
After that, it will be me vs the AI to see what happens.

[BillRunacre]

Interesting, I am following all the discussion here so look forward to hearing how it goes.

[Chernobyl]

The Trent fort seems just as difficult to recapture as it is to capture. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

What's the point of making that hex impassable? I rarely see Italians make good use of it. I use it occasionally for Austrian troops and don't really see what it would threaten if Italy put a corps there. The unit there will be in low supply (5) and unable to advance.

If you check out a map of the road network of the area from WWI, you will see a few "major roads" heading into the mountains north of padua, one road heading southeast out of Trent. The game doesn't depict these roads. If it helps for balance perhaps they could be included.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Yeah Chernobyl, I don't know if making Trent a fortress is a good thing or bad thing either haha.I just started a test game and running it only a few turns a day so it will be a while. btw with this test game I'm also running a Russia First strategy..which I NEVER do in a PM..but thought it would be fun trying one while I stalk you and Dazo's test of that strategy [:D]

Also..I placed that Impassable hex at the Alta Adige on Stockwellpete's suggestion. Aesthetically, it looks pleasing. However, I also am beginning to wonder about this, as I also found maps of that era showing roads and troop movements there. More research is required about this, which is fun and part of the hobby if a person wants to get serious about it.

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

The Trent fort seems just as difficult to recapture as it is to capture. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

A good thing surely. Trento wasn't captured at all in WW1. It was protected by forts.

What's the point of making that hex impassable? I rarely see Italians make good use of it. I use it occasionally for Austrian troops and don't really see what it would threaten if Italy put a corps there. The unit there will be in low supply (5) and unable to advance.

If you check out a map of the road network of the area from WWI, you will see a few "major roads" heading into the mountains north of padua, one road heading southeast out of Trent. The game doesn't depict these roads. If it helps for balance perhaps they could be included.

The point is that the AI attacks in a broad front in that area and even sends tanks up the Alto Adige. It always tries to get to Salzburg and Linz. The Impassable hex is a way of breaking the front up. It might need another Impassable hex next to Bruneck as well. The Italians mostly attacked at the Isonzo. They did try to take Trentino on one occasion at least. They did not go up the Alto Adige and beyond as far as I know.

[Chernobyl]

Here's what I came up with looking at historical maps and google earth

Padua moved to a more geographically correct location (it isn't anywhere near correct in the game), Treviso town inserted as a more accurate city hex behind the Piave. Brenta river created in front of Padua.

Looks like a lot of rails but they did exist at the time and because Italy suffers from a lack of space here it helps to have extra supply lines so losing one hex doesn't cut off a town.

Gave Austria one extra border mountain hex SW of Trent, I think it looks more like the historical A/H border.

Feel free to use it or hate on it

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Here's what I came up with looking at historical maps and google earth

Padua moved to a more geographically correct location (it isn't anywhere near correct in the game), Treviso town inserted as a more accurate city hex behind the Piave. Brenta river created in front of Padua.

Looks like a lot of rails but they did exist at the time and because Italy suffers from a lack of space here it helps to have extra supply lines so losing one hex doesn't cut off a town.

Gave Austria one extra border mountain hex SW of Trent, I think it looks more like the historical A/H border.

Feel free to use it or hate on it

This is bueno!! I'll make a second personal mod and try it too.

btw, have you had time to run yours yet? I'm still in Dec 1914 as Entente with mine..(super busy RL + PM games but trying to pulling a couple of turns a day on my Trento mini-mod.)

Edit: Yeah I just scrolled up to my map to see where Padua is in the vanilla and checked my atlas and yours is sited better.

Second Edit: Adding Treviso gives Italy another resource which may not be desirable. Maybe just eliminate Padua entirely but keep Treviso to keep Italy's MMP generation the same?
I wonder if where Padua was located in vanilla was an abstraction to represent the dense urban situation that's there including Treviso. Doing placements like that isn't uncommon when trying to design a map at certain scales.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

This is a small mod I made based on discussions with Stockwellpete, Chernobyl, and others concerning the weaknesses the Austro-Hungarians have on their border with Italy.

Changes:

1) Made Trento a Fortress.(ent 3)
2) Made one hex of the Alta Adige High Mountains. (ent 3)

Will be testing this out from the Central Powers p.o.v. in a hotseat first, then the Entente second.
After that, it will be me vs the AI to see what happens.

copied from another thread, with a new update. thought it would be more relevant here:

I'm still in the process of running my mini-mod making Trento a Fortress. I've rolled into mid 1915 as Italy gets in the war. I'm doing this solo and running both sides to see what happens, but I haven't compiled enough data to see any unexpected outcomes..yet . I have not run the AI against with this also...so have no idea how it would react to this simple change on the map.

One concern I have..but not tested yet, is if placing a fort there will make Trento an unassailable point that the CP can use to snipe every unit, particularly Italian units, that are in the early stages of their research and are camped out around it. What I wonder is if click/shifting 2 or 3 CP units on the road from behind or on either side of Trento and attacking one defending unit could eliminate it easy. While moving in and out of the fortress will diminish the forts entrenchment value for the next turn, I'm not sure yet if that would off set the damage that such a tactic could do on a turn by turn basis, and if it will be balanced or not. Like I said though..it needs more testing.

So far though in the first stages of my test, at least from the Central Powers perspective, having Trento as a Fortress does alleviate by a small measure the anxiety of holding the place. Since I'm running the rest of the campaign, I haven't felt compelled to get a German corp in there as much as I normally do. But then again, this is just an initial observation.

Also, at least for now, with the Fortress placed on Trento, I personally don't think adding an Austro-Hungarian Corp to the OOB or as an extra unit is necessary. I think that the CP player should still have to make the determination of what he places in Trento with the original forces at hand, be it Austro-Hungarian or German.

Anyway, sorry I can't add anymore or answer any questions regarding balance or other possible problems that would warp the existing model. My gut feeling says this change could be ok, and it looks and feels right so far, but more testing needs to be done with this. This has been fun...and I will be working on it and will post what I have discovered.

Update:
So far in hotseat mode running both sides, my concerns regarding Trento being an unassailable sniping roost for the CP to damage any surrounding Italians hasn't been a problem as long as the Italians entrench in the mountain hexes around Trento...and invest in trench research also. (which I'm assuming most players have as a priority anyway). I'm still in mid 1915 and the Italians are catching up to their allies with trench tech slowly.

Placing an Austro-Hungarian corp not under a HQ attachment seems to resist better against early Italian attacks of 4-5 corps under a It Hq 6 then previously. Also, the Italians lose some of their entrenchment value as they shift out of their positions for the second wave, which makes them more prone to counter attack.

The high mountain hex (white blotch) I placed on the Alta Adige isn't impassable like I initially believed, it can be moved on from a neighboring 'normal' mountain hex, and gives a max entrenchment value of 3, instead of 2 of a 'normal' mountain hex. Supply up to that hex is low, which is desirable, and it also works to split the Alpine Front into two sectors somewhat, as Stockwellpete wished would happen. As a test there, I also tried to run a supplied cavalry unit up and over it but it was stopped as soon as it moved in to that hex from an adjacent one. So, at least for now, this change of terrain feels alright.

Still have a lot more testing to do as the campaign winds on and I can get artillery, HQ support, and mountain troops into the fray. Also, I will be going back to earlier saves to try other early Italian/Entente efforts to take Trento by storm, which is relatively easy against Austro-Hungarian units anyway with vanilla. Also, I will put up some screen shots as time allows, as its a bit of a fiddly process for me at least.

cheers

[Chernobyl]

I think it's more difficult to attack out of Trent than it is to attack into Trent because of the mountains reducing maneuver space but also simply because the Italians start closer with 3 guys next to Trent and the Austrians can't really do anything to occupy more space. That's kind of the whole reason we are considering giving the Austrians a free fort. If the front were to fill up it's difficult for the Austrians to make progress from Trent even if they have artillery there. You might destroy an Italian corps but then find you have no one left to advance into their mountain hex, or even if you do spare a unit with full movement, it can't entrench and move simultaneously due to mountains + ZOC.

In my games I always push Udine/Padua and only then can my units around Trent start to help.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I think it's more difficult to attack out of Trent than it is to attack into Trent because of the mountains reducing maneuver space but also simply because the Italians start closer with 3 guys next to Trent and the Austrians can't really do anything to occupy more space. That's kind of the whole reason we are considering giving the Austrians a free fort. If the front were to fill up it's difficult for the Austrians to make progress from Trent even if they have artillery there. You might destroy an Italian corps but then find you have no one left to advance into their mountain hex, or even if you do spare a unit with full movement, it can't entrench and move simultaneously due to mountains + ZOC.

In my games I always push Udine/Padua and only then can my units around Trent start to help.

Yeah, same here with a possible CP offensive against Italy when the time comes. Udine can be taken pretty easily with a 4-5 corps attack with artillery if needed and/or a cavalry unit. Sometimes, when I haven't been able to pull enough forces from other 'needful' sectors, I've been able to make a spoiling attack against that front, break a hole, and rush a cavalry unit in and then out of Udine to get the NM. That can cool the jets out of Italy for a awhile.

The Italo-Austrian Front always seems to be a secondary front, but big things can develop there for the CP, especially along that axis of attack against Italy.

Btw...is there a proper designation for this front? I've seen a variety of names. [:)]

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Trento as a Fortress seems to work well as planned..the Italian 5 corp attack was done in May 1914 in rain. The Austro-Hungarians have just got entrenchement 1..so the defending KuK corp had ent4. They were not under an HQ.

Previously, in a save..I had a KuK detachment there..it was taken by the Italians with 4 corps.

Since there's variability with the combat engine..the defending corp possibly could have been defeated, especially if I had used the Italians recon bmr to demoralize them somewhat (modest, I know, but it is an edge when not raining lol).
A better quality unit like a German corp or the AH corp in Trento under an HQ attachment may improve even further the outcome for the defender. I will be doing more tests soon on this.

I have been real busy RL..but read other posts concerning possible fix regarding Trento. This change I think would be a benefit, more balanced, and more historical.

Edit: I also like the change making the Alta Adige 'high mountains', as suggested by Stockwellpete...aesthetically as well as geographically speaking. I don't think it will have much impact on operations there but seems to create 2 sectors on this front, which is historical. cheers

[stockwellpete]

As far as playing against the AI goes, I firstly edited the Alpine front by making 3 squares "High" mountains, instead of just mountains. These hexes were 170,89 171,89 and 170,90. I was playing as the Central Powers and in 1915 I organised my defence in 2 groups. I put an Infantry Corps in Trento, which is now a Fortified Town and a Detachment in Bruneck. I then put another group of units defending the Isonzo, Klagenfurt, Trieste etc. The Alto Adige hexes were left undefended. All units were Austro-Hungarian. Despite all this the AI still seemed determined to reach Salzburg by way of hex 172,89, which I had not changed. The AI did not move on to the new "High" mountain hexes at all.

So, I have started a new game and added hex 172,89 to the new "High" mountain hex group. The Italians have just entered the war and I will see what they do now. It is quite funny that the AI has not approached Trento with any Italian unit in its first couple of moves. It is as if it senses something is different and is going to wait until the French turn up!

I am not sure how the Italian AI is scripted on this front. Is it organised for a broad advance, or does it target the path of least resistance? It seems that its centre point is aimed at Salzburg when really it might be best directed at the Isonzo.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

As far as playing against the AI goes, I firstly edited the Alpine front by making 3 squares "High" mountains, instead of just mountains. These hexes were 170,89 171,89 and 170,90. I was playing as the Central Powers and in 1915 I organised my defence in 2 groups. I put an Infantry Corps in Trento, which is now a Fortified Town and a Detachment in Bruneck. I then put another group of units defending the Isonzo, Klagenfurt, Trieste etc. The Alto Adige hexes were left undefended. All units were Austro-Hungarian. Despite all this the AI still seemed determined to reach Salzburg by way of hex 172,89, which I had not changed. The AI did not move on to the new "High" mountain hexes at all.

So, I have started a new game and added hex 172,89 to the new "High" mountain hex group. The Italians have just entered the war and I will see what they do now. It is quite funny that the AI has not approached Trento with any Italian unit in its first couple of moves. It is as if it senses something is different and is going to wait until the French turn up!

I am not sure how the Italian AI is scripted on this front. Is it organised for a broad advance, or does it target the path of least resistance? It seems that its centre point is aimed at Salzburg when really it might be best directed at the Isonzo.

Ok...I will redesign the map and add those mountains listed and give it a spin. I only did back to back hotseats to try out the Fortress.

Interesting that the Italians(AI) didn't want to give a go on Trento..now that's a step in the right direction. [:D]

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Ok...I will redesign the map and add those mountains listed and give it a spin. I only did back to back hotseats to try out the Fortress.

Interesting that the Italians(AI) didn't want to give a go on Trento..now that's a step in the right direction. [:D]

I am waiting to see what the AI Italians do when they get their artillery into the game. I think the Fortress works fine. Ideally the Austro-Hungarians will need to put an Infantry Corps eventually in there rather than a Detachment. The other plus side of these changes with Trento and the Alto Adige is that it helps to keep the Germans and Italians apart in 1915 (they hadn't actually declared war on each other at that stage) because it now becomes a bit more possible for the Austro-Hungarians to defend this area themselves.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Ok...I will redesign the map and add those mountains listed and give it a spin. I only did back to back hotseats to try out the Fortress.

Interesting that the Italians(AI) didn't want to give a go on Trento..now that's a step in the right direction. [:D]

I am waiting to see what the AI Italians do when they get their artillery into the game. I think the Fortress works fine. Ideally the Austro-Hungarians will need to put an Infantry Corps eventually in there rather than a Detachment. The other plus side of these changes with Trento and the Alto Adige is that it helps to keep the Germans and Italians apart in 1915 (they hadn't actually declared war on each other at that stage) because it now becomes a bit more possible for the Austro-Hungarians to defend this area themselves.

It may take awhile to get Italian arty

Since I'm doing a hotseat bothsides..I may get a French arty 1 over to Italy when it comes available to test the walls...in a PM match, I probably wouldn't do that since France would probably be fighting for her life come 1915....

One thing that's going to be important for Austria is to get their entrenchment tech up fast to augment Trento Fortress natural defenses. I think, but haven't tested, that Trento could still be stormed fairly easily in 1915 by the Italians if Austria doesn't have at least entrenchment 2 by the time of Italys entry. Of course, AH always has mass problems shouting for money by then.

I will add those high mountains too..also, my RL work gives me good geographical sources on top of google maps to see and compare this area with the Swiss part of the Alps. (including military applications that have basically modified the earth haha) I do see why you wanted those 3 spots in..and didn't know about the 4th spot that seems to be the route the AI chooses to rush to Salzburg.

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Ok...I will redesign the map and add those mountains listed and give it a spin. I only did back to back hotseats to try out the Fortress.

Interesting that the Italians(AI) didn't want to give a go on Trento..now that's a step in the right direction. [:D]

I am waiting to see what the AI Italians do when they get their artillery into the game. I think the Fortress works fine. Ideally the Austro-Hungarians will need to put an Infantry Corps eventually in there rather than a Detachment. The other plus side of these changes with Trento and the Alto Adige is that it helps to keep the Germans and Italians apart in 1915 (they hadn't actually declared war on each other at that stage) because it now becomes a bit more possible for the Austro-Hungarians to defend this area themselves.

The Italian AI has avoided all High Mountain hexes and is now throwing everything at Trento, despite having no Artillery yet. Not a single attack on the Isonzo. This definitely needs correcting, I think.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Hmmm...interesting. Maybe they are being funneled.

Possibly, removing a few of the high mountain hexes you specified next to Bruneck will do the trick. Leave the High Mountain hex on the Alta Adige hex and try that vs AI.

Its possible, also, that placing that high mountain hex just east of the Alta Adige hex next to the rail junction to thwart the Italian AI continual attempts towards Salzburg may be the reason. (They are being redirected).

Before reading your post, I was going to communicate with you the advantage of both of us testing this proposed change(s) simultaneously,. One from a vs.AI and the other vs.Human vantage.

I was going to get on editor and add those extra high mountains. Without worrying about the AI, it seemed reasonable...but that won't work if the AI is being unreasonable [:D]

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Hmmm...interesting. Maybe they are being funneled.

Possibly, removing a few of the high mountain hexes you specified next to Bruneck will do the trick. Leave the High Mountain hex on the Alta Adige hex and try that vs AI.

I have tried that and the AI Italians just go for Trento.

Its possible, also, that placing that high mountain hex just east of the Alta Adige hex next to the rail junction to thwart the Italian AI continual attempts towards Salzburg may be the reason. (They are being redirected).

Possibly, but without it the AI Italians try to get to Salzburg.

Before reading your post, I was going to communicate with you the advantage of both of us testing this proposed change(s) simultaneously,. One from a vs.AI and the other vs.Human vantage.

I was going to get on editor and add those extra high mountains. Without worrying about the AI, it seemed reasonable...but that won't work if the AI is being unreasonable [:D]

I think the scripting probably needs changing. It seems the very last thing the AI Italians want to do is to attack across the Isonzo.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Ok..I see. Well, what I can do is finish the new version with all the high mountains on the hexes as specified by you..and run a hotseat to get the human experience of operating in this theater.

I have 2 created already: v.1 Trento Fortress and v.2 Trento Fortress with Alta Adige high mountain..(currently doing) So the next one will be v.3.

Maybe any scripting issues we can get help on..for AI testing.

I will post a v.3 for my hotseat run later this afternoon (PST) to make sure I have the placements of the mountains correct. No other changes are made other that the Fortress at Trento. I want to run a full campaign hotseat vs myself lol to see how outside pressures will or could influence the Alpine Front. I will be certain there will be a heightened focus on this area from both sides.

[Chernobyl]

You know if you want to make a hex impassable you can probably edit high mountain to have a movement cost of 8+ instead of 4

Then again I think aircraft could still land on it and you could do a swap so maybe it's not impassable