Frank r VS Frank b

[rustysi]

Forget about the time difference in getting these two aircraft, which would you prefer to have as a front line plane.

OK, so the Frank r is 7MPH faster, and has a good maneuverable rating up to 31K altitude.

Thing is the Frank b has 4 20mm cannon, and two of them are CL guns. Nice firepower.

Choose.[:D]

[Hrafnagud]

Horses for courses.

The R variant was specifically designed for high-altitude interception.

Is your opponent using stratospheric sweeps at the end of the war? In that case, I would go for the R variant.

In all other cases, I would prefer the B variant.

[Q-Ball]

So much easier to get to the Frank-R though, because it's an upgrade from the Frank-a

[mind_messing]

The Frank R all the way.

The speed and the high altitude performance tip the scales in a big way. Well worth losing two extra cannons.

[Randy Stead]

I assume CL = center line guns? And they are more accurate as compared to wing mounted guns? 4 x 20mm cannons sure would pack a whoomp.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

I assume CL = center line guns? And they are more accurate as compared to wing mounted guns? 4 x 20mm cannons sure would pack a whoomp.

Yes, centerline guns have a doubled accuracy.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

I assume CL = center line guns? And they are more accurate as compared to wing mounted guns? 4 x 20mm cannons sure would pack a whoomp.

Yes. Yes. And yes.[:D]

Its roughly equivalent to having 6 wing mounted 20mm.

[Ambassador]

As for your question, I go for the 84b.

Regarding speed, you’ll face F4U-1D, which will have over 25 mph over even the 84r and greater durability, or P-51D which are even faster. Or P-47N which are faster, way more durable, packing a far greater punch with 8 0.5in (8*3 against 14 for 84r or 16 for 84b). And all three fly even higher than the 84r.

So, higher speed for the US fighters means the maneuverability advantage is lessened or negated, and the speed difference between both models is less relevant. At least, with 4*20mm, you get better odds of hitting with the CL pair.

Oh, and speaking of maneuverability ? 84r >31k ft is 22, 84b is 14, but F4U-1D is 13, P-51D is 11, but P-47N is already 17 (with a 61mph speed advantage). So, no, you don’t really have a maneuverability advantage.
And let’s just add that P-51H are coming soon too, with an even greater speed. And if it really comes to it, the P-80A with 558mph, 45k max alt, 28 maneuver and 6 centerline 0.5in.

So, unless you manage to greatly hasten the development of the 84r, it’ll still be outclassed by the Allied fighters, so with the 84b you at least have better odds to have one successful first shot.


PS: and don’t get me started on the service rating...[8|]

ÉDIT: and even if you manage to push the development forward to ‘44, the Allies still have the P-47D25 and the P-51B, which again fly faster and higher anyway, with the same 8*0.5in for the Thunderbolt... and getting those starting 44/3. And even the P-47D2 have the same advantages, right from 43/7.

[mind_messing]

So, higher speed for the US fighters means the maneuverability advantage is lessened or negated, and the speed difference between both models is less relevant. At least, with 4*20mm, you get better odds of hitting with the CL pair.

Oh, and speaking of maneuverability ? 84r >31k ft is 22, 84b is 14, but F4U-1D is 13, P-51D is 11, but P-47N is already 17 (with a 61mph speed advantage). So, no, you don’t really have a maneuverability advantage.
And let’s just add that P-51H are coming soon too, with an even greater speed. And if it really comes to it, the P-80A with 558mph, 45k max alt, 28 maneuver and 6 centerline 0.5in.

This is not quite correct, considering how the and shows why you should prioritise the R model

See comments from Alfred here - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4035467

MVR Delta between Ki-84R and Allied planes at >32k (assuming Ki-84R MVR is halved as per Alfred's comments, so Frank R = 22/2 = 11 MVR)

P47N: -6
P51H: -4
F6F5: -4
F4U1D: -2

Therefore, even if the Allied aircraft being discussed pass every speed check, and that check has full impact on the IJ planes MVR rating at max altitude, the Ki-84r is still fairly competitive in terms of MVR.

Do the same for the B model and it's a much grimmer picture (Frank B = 14/2 = 7)

P47N: -10
P51H: -8
F6F5: -9
F4U1D: -5

Quite the difference. Even more so given that we're considering only altitudes above 32k. When you start to look at using the Frank R at lower altitudes, it becomes a much more even contest (even assuming the full halving of the slower planes MVR takes place).

The extra MVR makes a difference. Stick with the R

[Ambassador]

Per Alfred’s comment, it’s the slower aircraft needing to pass the checks to avoid the reduction. Being -4/-6 against the P-47/P-51 still puts the 84r at a serious disadvantage. Tell me how my statement that « the maneuverability advantage is lessened or negated » is not correct whey your own maths shows the net result will be a disadvantage ?

Moreover, the actual speed takes into account a lot of factors, but when comparing the 84 with the P-51/P-47 (let’s be honest, I only included the USN fighters for the off chance the carriers might conduct a landing where the US don’t have a big numerical advantage), pretty much all the factors favor the US planes. So, the actual difference in airspeed might be even greater.

The longer a fight lasts, the closer to the average do the results tend to approach. So, the longer an 84r manages to keep in the fight, the more probable check fails become. The risk exist starting with a 10mph delta, yet even the F4U-1D is over twice that threshold, with the other models even higher. Hence, greater odds of having a bigger speed delta, so the longer the fight lasts, the higher the risks.

So, to somewhat mitigate the disadvantages against the US planes, you’d be ready to sacrifice 2 CL 20mm for 2 12.7mm ? Those peashooters won’t kill a Jug, nor a Mustang either. Might not even seriously damage the Jug. However, the 20mm might damage or kill both. When failing to kill a Jug in the first pass (assuming it might get it, without the speed or altitude advantage), the 84r pilot just gets another risk of failing to pass a check.

[mind_messing]

Per Alfred’s comment, it’s the slower aircraft needing to pass the checks to avoid the reduction. Being -4/-6 against the P-47/P-51 still puts the 84r at a serious disadvantage. Tell me how my statement that « the maneuverability advantage is lessened or negated » is not correct whey your own maths shows the net result will be a disadvantage ?

I took umbrage with your suggestion that because the MVR advantage wasn't possible, the B model was preferable for the armaments layout. It's not. Even the MVR advantage being negated is worth a great deal.

The R model will fight at a slight to moderate disadvantage at max altitude, while the B model will fight at a serious disadvantage. In other words, the R model is competitive with the most common top-line Allied fighters, even when the full speed penalty is applied.

I will leave the maths for the mid and low altitudes bands as an exercise for the reader.

Moreover, the actual speed takes into account a lot of factors, but when comparing the 84 with the P-51/P-47 (let’s be honest, I only included the USN fighters for the off chance the carriers might conduct a landing where the US don’t have a big numerical advantage), pretty much all the factors favor the US planes. So, the actual difference in airspeed might be even greater.

The longer a fight lasts, the closer to the average do the results tend to approach. So, the longer an 84r manages to keep in the fight, the more probable check fails become. The risk exist starting with a 10mph delta, yet even the F4U-1D is over twice that threshold, with the other models even higher. Hence, greater odds of having a bigger speed delta, so the longer the fight lasts, the higher the risks.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if checks are passed or not. Assuming a R fails every check and has it's MVR passed, it's comparable with the best airframes the Allies have.

I'd also question if that's how the code works in practice, but that's a rhetorical question as neither you nor I will ever know.

So, to somewhat mitigate the disadvantages against the US planes, you’d be ready to sacrifice 2 CL 20mm for 2 12.7mm ? Those peashooters won’t kill a Jug, nor a Mustang either. Might not even seriously damage the Jug. However, the 20mm might damage or kill both. When failing to kill a Jug in the first pass (assuming it might get it, without the speed or altitude advantage), the 84r pilot just gets another risk of failing to pass a check.

Correct. The additional firepower is a poor trade for the improved performance characteristics of the R model.

You also don't seem to have considered the likely combat environment for these planes. The Allied planes are likely to be making a sweep, likely at high altitude, and so it's likely they'll have the bounce. The speed and maneuverability of the R model is better here, as is the improved climb rate, to help the defenders dodge the bounce and attempt to balance the score when the furball develops and/or other planes on CAP start to dogpile in.

That's well worth two cannons.

[RangerJoe]

There is something else to consider although I do not know how well it is modeled in the game: The planes are not always flying at maximum speed, usually it is the cruising speed for maximum fuel efficiency.

As far as putting a Mustang down, or any inline engine with a coolant, any sized bullet hole in the radiator will work. So will a bullet that enters the canopy and hits the pilot hard in the brain case. I believe that those two would be considered "critical hits" in the game.

[Coach Zuck]

Trying to recall at what speed difference does the Maneuver Value get halved?
I seem to recall a 50 mph difference can cause this....is this correct?

Does any speed difference affect affect air:to:combat?
Does a Ki-44IIa Tojo with its 50+mph over an F4F-4 get this "bonus" as well?

[rustysi]

There's no specific speed delta, its 'forum lore'. There's been a recent discussion on it. I'll find the post in a few.

[rustysi]

D'oh, can't find my a** with both hands and a road map lately.

See link in post 9 above.

Reference Alfred's post 16 in that link.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

D'oh, can't find my a** with both hands and a road map lately.

See link in post 9 above.

Reference Alfred's post 16 in that link.

That sounds like you are a butterbar.

[rustysi]

'Butterbar', no I worked for a living.[:D]

[Coach Zuck]

Took the time to read ALL of that previous thread with ALFRED's info etc.

So basically it's simple; speed is important, pilot experience is important, climb rate is important, etc. etc. etc.
So what I really get out of it "Very complex you can't simplify it!"

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

Took the time to read ALL of that previous thread with ALFRED's info etc.

So basically it's simple; speed is important, pilot experience is important, climb rate is important, etc. etc. etc.
So what I really get out of it "Very complex you can't simplify it!"

+1

[Randy Stead]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

There is something else to consider although I do not know how well it is modeled in the game: The planes are not always flying at maximum speed, usually it is the cruising speed for maximum fuel efficiency.

As far as putting a Mustang down, or any inline engine with a coolant, any sized bullet hole in the radiator will work. So will a bullet that enters the canopy and hits the pilot hard in the brain case. I believe that those two would be considered "critical hits" in the game.

In real life, good pilots knew the weaknesses of the enemy aircraft. I read of Luftwaffe fighter pilot Erich Hartmann's tactic against the IL-2 Sturmovik; because it was so heavily armoured he would try to get below it and shoot up into its belly. That took skill, because the IL-2 was a tree hugger.