This matter is current and important fellow gamers.
I would like some serious input on the matter.
Of the two options, buying it on a cd, or being only able to get a game if you download it, where do you stand on both choices?
Me, I have a broadband connection and frankly I can download several gigs of data just for the heck of it if it pleases me. And I can burn that data to a CD or DVD to suit my current level of amusement. Clearly I am not at any real disadvantage.
But frankly, I don't like being told a game can only be sold via download. Why? because I happen to know a lot of gamers out there DON'T have that choice. And I for one am not interested in putting my weight in favour of any choice that cuts out any sector of the market that readily.
If a game is only available as a download, you have just arbitrarily told anyone without broadband and a burner handy, sorry we don't care. That is unwise.
Downloadable should always be just an option, not the only option.
Important, how many of you feel strongly AGAINST games as only downloads?
Moderator: maddog986
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Important, how many of you feel strongly AGAINST games as only downloads?
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Pros of downloads:
- Universal release data. Us Europeans don't have to get shafted. It also means imports cost less and prices would hopefully level prices out. I could pay US/European prices for games.
- Would allow developers greater power(?). No idea if this is true or not, but I would imagine it would help reduce the influence of publishers, although you would still need someone to market and distribute the game online, although it would also mean that developers would stand a better chance of distributing their games on their own, if they wished to.
- Environmental friendly. Ok, you could argue I'm clutching at straws here, but it is a nice bonus.
- No scratched CD/game loss. Lose your copy? Scratch the disk? You can just download it again.
Negs:
- Obviously need a fast connection
- Lack of a proper manual. I do like having something well finished. Not a PDF fan.
- Encourages poor releases. We already have to suffer because of this policy in the industry to screw up initial releases and then just patch them up. What would happen next? Could we expect only bits of a game at a time? That's something Valve were discussing.
- Secuity issues. Would this produce new problems? It would certainly make it easier to copy the CD contents, but is there anything else.
I for one am quite happy to download the game, but, as you say, it should be an option.
- Universal release data. Us Europeans don't have to get shafted. It also means imports cost less and prices would hopefully level prices out. I could pay US/European prices for games.
- Would allow developers greater power(?). No idea if this is true or not, but I would imagine it would help reduce the influence of publishers, although you would still need someone to market and distribute the game online, although it would also mean that developers would stand a better chance of distributing their games on their own, if they wished to.
- Environmental friendly. Ok, you could argue I'm clutching at straws here, but it is a nice bonus.
- No scratched CD/game loss. Lose your copy? Scratch the disk? You can just download it again.
Negs:
- Obviously need a fast connection
- Lack of a proper manual. I do like having something well finished. Not a PDF fan.
- Encourages poor releases. We already have to suffer because of this policy in the industry to screw up initial releases and then just patch them up. What would happen next? Could we expect only bits of a game at a time? That's something Valve were discussing.
- Secuity issues. Would this produce new problems? It would certainly make it easier to copy the CD contents, but is there anything else.
I for one am quite happy to download the game, but, as you say, it should be an option.
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Klinkenhoffen
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:04 am
Make both available. The downloadable version cheaper.
I have a slow connection and when I downloaded SPWAW 7.1 about twelve months ago it took 32hours over several nights. At the time a CD wasn't available from Matrix with it on.
It was worth the time to download but I would have preferred to buy a CD just for the time factor.
klink
I have a slow connection and when I downloaded SPWAW 7.1 about twelve months ago it took 32hours over several nights. At the time a CD wasn't available from Matrix with it on.
It was worth the time to download but I would have preferred to buy a CD just for the time factor.
klink
It's all gone horribly wrong !
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NefariousKoel
- Posts: 1741
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 3:48 am
- Location: Murderous Missouri Scum
I'd much rather have the cd mainly for a manual. I read the things cover to cover a number of times just to I know I haven't missed anything. I can't stand it if there's a whole manual I have to print off myself or going through the hassle of having someone do it for me.
Other than the manual thing - it's a toss up.
Other than the manual thing - it's a toss up.
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Marc von Martial
- Posts: 5292
- Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Bonn, Germany
- Contact:
Matrix Games offers selected titles as download puchases. For all these titles you can request a backup beeing sent to you on CD too. Just check out the shops features 
.
I think this pretty much satisfies both parties. The people that want to download things and have them ASAP and those with a slow connection that don´t want to download it can still get the "backup" CD beeing sent to them.
.I think this pretty much satisfies both parties. The people that want to download things and have them ASAP and those with a slow connection that don´t want to download it can still get the "backup" CD beeing sent to them.
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Wallenstein
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 11:41 pm
- Location: Austria
From today´s point of view, I only buy my games on CD with a manual
Reasons:
-) I have a slow ISDN internet connection.
-) I live in Austria and don´t have a credit card - and this makes it nearly impossible to buy a game outside of Europe.
-) I collect my games and still have some diamonds of the early 80ies in my secret chamber.
However I do like what Stardock is offering with their Galactic Civilizations:
The game is available in the shops, it can be downloaded from their servers, and they have a downloadable updated online manual as well.
Reasons:
-) I have a slow ISDN internet connection.
-) I live in Austria and don´t have a credit card - and this makes it nearly impossible to buy a game outside of Europe.
-) I collect my games and still have some diamonds of the early 80ies in my secret chamber.
However I do like what Stardock is offering with their Galactic Civilizations:
The game is available in the shops, it can be downloaded from their servers, and they have a downloadable updated online manual as well.
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Marc, are the back up cds the same as what we would recognise as a commercial offering ie professionally labelled article?
I only ask, because getting a cd that was burned on the fly without a decent professional label might not seem like enough to some.
If there is no difference between a burned back up cd for say Desert Fox, and the original marketed version ie original is a silk screened (I assume that is how it is done) labelled item, then it begars the question why not just sell the item in the same old way?
I can relate to how it will be difficult to get a physical item to an overseas customer, whereas it might be cheaper to sell that same program as a download.
Question is, how much cheaper will it be?
I don't have any examples handy, so I will ask for some details which you might be able to generate faster. Plus, it would sound more convincing coming form your post than mine.
Could you tell us what it would cost to send a copy of say Desert Fox inclusive of all costs ie shipping, taxes all those wonderful add ons that were not mentioned in the original price, to say Austria.
Then tell us the same costs involved to merely sell the download to the same customer, inclusive of all considerations.
I feel that that would likely be the decisive argument for or against downloadable as opposed to buying it as a physical item.
I bought Mega Campaign Lost Victories through a friend in Texas. It was shipped to her, and incurred normal shipping for inside US. She then put it in regular mail to me as personal mail. That resulted in a meager 2 dollar (rounded up calculation) postage cost. Therefore I only incurred the base shipping cost a regular mainland US resident would see, plus 2 bucks.
There was no duty, no cross border shipper handling costs, none of that. Might not be totally legit to do it that way, but like I care (my government soaks me enough in taxes, they can lay off my wargames frankly as I see it
).
What I want to know, is if I had ordered the same item today, as a download, what would get added on to my cost once I had clicked and started the order process?.
The site lists it as $24.99 (US of course), I am given an option to order cd backup and it appears this option costs me another $10.95 (is that correct?). I clicked on the obvious buttons, and I seem to get a final price of $24.99. I clicked on the box suggesting I had asked for the cd back up but that is not reflected immediately in the bill on the next page (I think it should though), and the page continues to suggest $24.99.
The process to add the cd is not very clear (it took me a while to realise I had to also click that "add" button below (which seemed like a redundant action after the initial page).
The order then results in a cost of $35.94 (again US).
That is significant to this discussion I think.
People getting told sure we can sell you a back up cd, might not be aware that to get it, they are going to end up paying a hefty additional expense in the process.
24.99 becomes a great deal more a great deal faster suddenly.
I know myself, if I was told that the cd option was just an option, and would not incur ANY additional fee, I would not have any problem. But being told, my cd copy was going to suddenly signifcantly increase the cost of my purchase, I sure would be concerned.
That's why all those other hidden costs (shipping horros etc) to foreign customers is important.
Yes I think MC-SE will be worth every cent of the standard costs we have associated with the other MCs to date.
But $35.94 US plus shipping and all the rest, that is going to drive a very large stake through the heart of that MC before it is even finished.
The online menu for billing implies that shipping is free. Hmm I would like to believe that eh, honest I would.
Does that truely mean that $10.95 for the cd is going to cover every aspect of the cost incurred to ship it from Point A (that being Matrix Games) to Point B (that being Joe consumer living in some other country)? Including all those annoying hassles like customs, and the courier service etc?
Because we have all heard the tales of the dude that ordered the item, only to get told it had this cost and that cost added on, till his $24.99 cd was going to cost him near 100 bucks in his money.
I'll pay 100 bucks (Canadian) willingly for Combat Leader when it appears. Because it will be a completely new game. It will be a major step forward.
But am I wrong thinking there will be a lot of call for a MC that requires a game that has been in existence for several years, and costs nearly an insane sounding expense?
I love Steel Panthers immensely (which is no real secret I guess). But that's me.
All my thoughts are directed with the intent of possibly addressing the concerns of joe gamer in some foreign country deciding, "well that MC sounds cool, but I don't have broadband, and I can get this other game for 1/3 the cost, and it looks ok too".
Downloadable needs to be able to do it better than physical in some way.
I would even be so brazen as to suggest, that instead of $24.99, the price be significantly lowered to maybe $15.99. If we are going to get people to switch, to go the effort of "finding" a way to get that download if need be, then we need to make the option just to attractive to pass up.
35.94 plus shipping taxes customs etc converted into Canadian dollars, I don't even want to contemplate it.
Sorry for the long post here guys, I hope it has stirred some thoughts.
I only ask, because getting a cd that was burned on the fly without a decent professional label might not seem like enough to some.
If there is no difference between a burned back up cd for say Desert Fox, and the original marketed version ie original is a silk screened (I assume that is how it is done) labelled item, then it begars the question why not just sell the item in the same old way?
I can relate to how it will be difficult to get a physical item to an overseas customer, whereas it might be cheaper to sell that same program as a download.
Question is, how much cheaper will it be?
I don't have any examples handy, so I will ask for some details which you might be able to generate faster. Plus, it would sound more convincing coming form your post than mine.
Could you tell us what it would cost to send a copy of say Desert Fox inclusive of all costs ie shipping, taxes all those wonderful add ons that were not mentioned in the original price, to say Austria.
Then tell us the same costs involved to merely sell the download to the same customer, inclusive of all considerations.
I feel that that would likely be the decisive argument for or against downloadable as opposed to buying it as a physical item.
I bought Mega Campaign Lost Victories through a friend in Texas. It was shipped to her, and incurred normal shipping for inside US. She then put it in regular mail to me as personal mail. That resulted in a meager 2 dollar (rounded up calculation) postage cost. Therefore I only incurred the base shipping cost a regular mainland US resident would see, plus 2 bucks.
There was no duty, no cross border shipper handling costs, none of that. Might not be totally legit to do it that way, but like I care (my government soaks me enough in taxes, they can lay off my wargames frankly as I see it
).What I want to know, is if I had ordered the same item today, as a download, what would get added on to my cost once I had clicked and started the order process?.
The site lists it as $24.99 (US of course), I am given an option to order cd backup and it appears this option costs me another $10.95 (is that correct?). I clicked on the obvious buttons, and I seem to get a final price of $24.99. I clicked on the box suggesting I had asked for the cd back up but that is not reflected immediately in the bill on the next page (I think it should though), and the page continues to suggest $24.99.
The process to add the cd is not very clear (it took me a while to realise I had to also click that "add" button below (which seemed like a redundant action after the initial page).
The order then results in a cost of $35.94 (again US).
That is significant to this discussion I think.
People getting told sure we can sell you a back up cd, might not be aware that to get it, they are going to end up paying a hefty additional expense in the process.
24.99 becomes a great deal more a great deal faster suddenly.
I know myself, if I was told that the cd option was just an option, and would not incur ANY additional fee, I would not have any problem. But being told, my cd copy was going to suddenly signifcantly increase the cost of my purchase, I sure would be concerned.
That's why all those other hidden costs (shipping horros etc) to foreign customers is important.
Yes I think MC-SE will be worth every cent of the standard costs we have associated with the other MCs to date.
But $35.94 US plus shipping and all the rest, that is going to drive a very large stake through the heart of that MC before it is even finished.
The online menu for billing implies that shipping is free. Hmm I would like to believe that eh, honest I would.
Does that truely mean that $10.95 for the cd is going to cover every aspect of the cost incurred to ship it from Point A (that being Matrix Games) to Point B (that being Joe consumer living in some other country)? Including all those annoying hassles like customs, and the courier service etc?
Because we have all heard the tales of the dude that ordered the item, only to get told it had this cost and that cost added on, till his $24.99 cd was going to cost him near 100 bucks in his money.
I'll pay 100 bucks (Canadian) willingly for Combat Leader when it appears. Because it will be a completely new game. It will be a major step forward.
But am I wrong thinking there will be a lot of call for a MC that requires a game that has been in existence for several years, and costs nearly an insane sounding expense?
I love Steel Panthers immensely (which is no real secret I guess). But that's me.
All my thoughts are directed with the intent of possibly addressing the concerns of joe gamer in some foreign country deciding, "well that MC sounds cool, but I don't have broadband, and I can get this other game for 1/3 the cost, and it looks ok too".
Downloadable needs to be able to do it better than physical in some way.
I would even be so brazen as to suggest, that instead of $24.99, the price be significantly lowered to maybe $15.99. If we are going to get people to switch, to go the effort of "finding" a way to get that download if need be, then we need to make the option just to attractive to pass up.
35.94 plus shipping taxes customs etc converted into Canadian dollars, I don't even want to contemplate it.
Sorry for the long post here guys, I hope it has stirred some thoughts.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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Orzel Bialy
- Posts: 2569
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 5:39 am
- Location: Wisconsin USA
- Contact:
I'll be Highly Disappointed...
If Matrix offers their products, like the new SEMC, in download format only...I for one will not be overly happy with that decision. 
A US release of their product selections should be made at least for limited timeframes..after which they could go download only. This way at least there is a compromise for most consumers to get what they want in the method that is most cost and/or time effective for them.
A US release of their product selections should be made at least for limited timeframes..after which they could go download only. This way at least there is a compromise for most consumers to get what they want in the method that is most cost and/or time effective for them.
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Charles2222
- Posts: 3687
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:00 am
The only way I'd put up with download only would be if one of two things were true: a) That I had a cd burner (I do at the present moment but haven't figured out how to do it, nor do I have an immediate need to so so) or b) That the software is offered for half price of competively similar products. Failing not having a cd burner, if it's true for a good number of owners, is crucial, because there aren't many people who expect they'll have the same computer three years from now, which of course means you either pay for it all over again, or it's lost completely. I think wargaming is a select and niche enough bunch of people, that it's one of the few markets that could really boast accurately of having a sizeable part of their community which desire substantial longevity from their software.
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Charles, you are a fine example of my concerns. You have been an active member of the site for quite some time (if I am not mistaken ) and you have brought a lot to the community (my opinion at least).
But you prove that even our more interested fans are not always equipped to indulge what the mass media might want us to believe is commonplace.
Truth is not everyone has fast connections and fancy tools or skill in doing somethings with them.
In regards to your learning to use your cd burner though, I would like to give a fans recommendation.
Check out Nero.
http://www.nero.com/us/index.html
Sure there are likely lots of programs on the market, but this is the one I actually use.
And yes, it is very stupid friendly (which is why I like it hehe).
There is no learning curve worth mention with Nero Ultra. It is simply to easy to use.
) and you have brought a lot to the community (my opinion at least).But you prove that even our more interested fans are not always equipped to indulge what the mass media might want us to believe is commonplace.
Truth is not everyone has fast connections and fancy tools or skill in doing somethings with them.
In regards to your learning to use your cd burner though, I would like to give a fans recommendation.
Check out Nero.
http://www.nero.com/us/index.html
Sure there are likely lots of programs on the market, but this is the one I actually use.
And yes, it is very stupid friendly (which is why I like it hehe).
There is no learning curve worth mention with Nero Ultra. It is simply to easy to use.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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Charles2222
- Posts: 3687
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:00 am
Thanks for the intro. to the stuff. It's not like I don't have the instructions somewhere (I do have Nero), it's just that I haven't got around to it. I need a serious subject to put on one. At the moment, that may be SPWW2, but as of yet I'm not entirely satisfied that I have everything as optimum as I'll get it. Another thing to consider as far as the wargaming niche group goes, and that is that we're definitely in a group where having ancient hardware isn't that uncommon. I mean, can you picture an FPS fan with a 17" CRT monitor much less a 15"? My first foray into cd burning is likely to be when I think I've got enough military music in my music folder to fill up a cd. Have any idea how much a cd holds (1.5G?)?Les the Sarge 9-1 wrote:Charles, you are a fine example of my concerns. You have been an active member of the site for quite some time (if I am not mistaken
But you prove that even our more interested fans are not always equipped to indulge what the mass media might want us to believe is commonplace.
Truth is not everyone has fast connections and fancy tools or skill in doing somethings with them.
In regards to your learning to use your cd burner though, I would like to give a fans recommendation.
Check out Nero.
http://www.nero.com/us/index.html
Sure there are likely lots of programs on the market, but this is the one I actually use.
And yes, it is very stupid friendly (which is why I like it hehe).
There is no learning curve worth mention with Nero Ultra. It is simply to easy to use.
I just wish that oronzo website hadn't disappeared. It was indispensible for hordes of military tunes. Unfortunately they disappeared about the time I was switching computers. Now I have to slog through a bunch of different websites to try to accumulate more hordes.
HA! I just mailed out a CD this AM. Someone needed SPWAW 7.1 so I burned it, H2H and a couple patches onto the disk...I noticed there was another 100mb of space remaining so on a whim I added some military mp3's (Erika, Panzerlied, etc).Charles_22 wrote:My first foray into cd burning is likely to be when I think I've got enough military music in my music folder to fill up a cd. Have any idea how much a cd holds (1.5G?)?
BTW, CDR capacity is 700mb (some older/cheaper disks only hold 650mb).
Jim NSB 
Oh...and there most certainly should be hard copies of the MC available. In this age of 'order at need' publishing there's no reason not to at least run off a couple hundred copies of MCSE...more could be requested if the demand is present.
And as I recall it, one of the greatest problems with the release of MCLV was the Matrix online store. At that time there was a multi-page thread containing complaints about the site's complete inability to process orders correctly during the height of the MC's 'buzz'. If you were lucky (like me) the only problem was that your order was entered twice. :rolleyes: The 'unlucky' went to the online store, were told that their password (given to them by Matrix) was invalid, and were shoo'd away. Loyal fans brought the problem to Matrix' attention, but the site remained dysfunctional for several days....makes you seriously contemplate whether the poor sales were due to the product or the pipeline (or lack thereof!).
So to Matrix: make a limited run of the CD....they will sell out quickly. Who you gonna believe, me or your marketing/sales department? Before you answer, remember who was responsible for the debacle described in the previous paragraph. 
And as I recall it, one of the greatest problems with the release of MCLV was the Matrix online store. At that time there was a multi-page thread containing complaints about the site's complete inability to process orders correctly during the height of the MC's 'buzz'. If you were lucky (like me) the only problem was that your order was entered twice. :rolleyes: The 'unlucky' went to the online store, were told that their password (given to them by Matrix) was invalid, and were shoo'd away. Loyal fans brought the problem to Matrix' attention, but the site remained dysfunctional for several days....makes you seriously contemplate whether the poor sales were due to the product or the pipeline (or lack thereof!).
So to Matrix: make a limited run of the CD....they will sell out quickly. Who you gonna believe, me or your marketing/sales department? Before you answer, remember who was responsible for the debacle described in the previous paragraph.
Jim NSB
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Charles2222
- Posts: 3687
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:00 am
Gulp! Only 700mb? I thought SPWAW was larger than that.tracer wrote:HA! I just mailed out a CD this AM. Someone needed SPWAW 7.1 so I burned it, H2H and a couple patches onto the disk...I noticed there was another 100mb of space remaining so on a whim I added some military mp3's (Erika, Panzerlied, etc).
BTW, CDR capacity is 700mb (some older/cheaper disks only hold 650mb).
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Steel Panthers sits on my computer as a 1.23 gig folder if you consider it is the core game uncompressed and set up, with all known patches and updates and the files of all 4 Mega Campaigns (yes of course I have MC-SE hehe I am part of the design team after all hehe ).
But my "Ultra Steel Panthers" cd (as I call it) has the self executing setup file of the core game (SPWaW 7.1 which is a 439 meg file) along with 72.8 megs of options like the H2Hfr file and two rare SP mods for Civil War and War of the Worlds, plus the 124 megs of the two files from SP Cammo for SPWW2 and SPMBT, and I even have 28.5 megs of files from 3 good demos.
Uses up 699 megs on a 700 meg cd in the process. But it is an easy thing to produce.
So it depends on whether you are asking for the file size you download, the file size required to install, or the file size footprint of an installed game.
The file you need to get the game therefore is a 439 meg file for the basic game.
).But my "Ultra Steel Panthers" cd (as I call it) has the self executing setup file of the core game (SPWaW 7.1 which is a 439 meg file) along with 72.8 megs of options like the H2Hfr file and two rare SP mods for Civil War and War of the Worlds, plus the 124 megs of the two files from SP Cammo for SPWW2 and SPMBT, and I even have 28.5 megs of files from 3 good demos.
Uses up 699 megs on a 700 meg cd in the process. But it is an easy thing to produce.
So it depends on whether you are asking for the file size you download, the file size required to install, or the file size footprint of an installed game.
The file you need to get the game therefore is a 439 meg file for the basic game.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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riverbravo
- Posts: 336
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:25 am
- Location: Bay St Louis Ms.
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Charles2222
- Posts: 3687
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:00 am
10-4.Les the Sarge 9-1 wrote:Steel Panthers sits on my computer as a 1.23 gig folder if you consider it is the core game uncompressed and set up, with all known patches and updates and the files of all 4 Mega Campaigns (yes of course I have MC-SE hehe I am part of the design team after all hehe
But my "Ultra Steel Panthers" cd (as I call it) has the self executing setup file of the core game (SPWaW 7.1 which is a 439 meg file) along with 72.8 megs of options like the H2Hfr file and two rare SP mods for Civil War and War of the Worlds, plus the 124 megs of the two files from SP Cammo for SPWW2 and SPMBT, and I even have 28.5 megs of files from 3 good demos.
Uses up 699 megs on a 700 meg cd in the process. But it is an easy thing to produce.
So it depends on whether you are asking for the file size you download, the file size required to install, or the file size footprint of an installed game.
The file you need to get the game therefore is a 439 meg file for the basic game.
Most games that are available for download have some sort of code that enables you to simply download it again. In the case of GalCiv, you can get them to re-send you your code simply by telling them the e-mail address you originally ordered from. A CD back-up is a good idea though, as it saves time and there's no guarantee that the company will still be in business when you want to download again.Charles_22 wrote: there aren't many people who expect they'll have the same computer three years from now, which of course means you either pay for it all over again, or it's lost completely.