Balance Thread

Warplan is a World War 2 simulation engine. It is a balance of realism and playability incorporating the best from 50 years of World War 2 board wargaming.

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Harrybanana
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Manpower is indeed the real constraining factor for the Germans down the line and why later in the war they end up subsidizing the Axis minors and Italy as a matter of efficiency.

Alvaro mentioned something upthread about infantry not scaling well. I think he is on to something here. And German infantry has a massive 20% experience bonus over everyone else, but even with that infantry just doesn't keep up well with mech in the later years.

This is exactly the opposite of real life, where armor started off strong but struggled later on as infantry AT weapons and such reversed the balance of arms more in favor of the poor bloody infantry as time went on. Combined arms become more rather than less important in time.

+1 I was going to post the same thing. The other difference between early war and late war was psychological. The Shock and Awe effect of tanks early in the War was much greater than it was by the end of the War.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by battlevonwar »

Defang armor becareful, as air has been defanged you will never get strong points or breakthroughs ... An Infantry AT Corp at 23 Strength sitting on an objective fully supplied will take a lifetime to destroy ...
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by Flaviusx »

The tweak Alvaro applied to heavy armor tech seems like a nice modest adjustment, nothing too crazy. I'm happy to see how that plays out.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by Jeff_Ahl »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The tweak Alvaro applied to heavy armor tech seems like a nice modest adjustment, nothing too crazy. I'm happy to see how that plays out.

I am to busy at the moment to looking up that tweak and have missed what was changed. Please deveolope, I know there was alot of discussion around Heavy Armor vs Breakthrough but never heard what was done about it.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by AlvaroSousa »

Heavy armor defense and tanks have been reduced by one by 1945.

Their progression was slowed for the other years.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by Jeff_Ahl »

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Heavy armor defense and tanks have been reduced by one by 1945.

Their progression was slowed for the other years.

T(h)anks.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by battlevonwar »

Alvaro, in my last two games vs Allied Opponents of equal or greater skill. I find that the Axis can survive well into '42, do some damage but there it ends. The situation is about this, the Allies know they can give land and have time and the Allies can land anywhere they want with an army they can afford to lose and rebuild within a short period of time. So no matter what the Allies will always win when the opponents are of = skill by '43... Unless the Axis player makes zero errors, then I think the possibility of survival in '44 is doable.

No strategy or tactic I can see on 1.9 would change this the Axis are short about 10 or 15 Corps to defend against the Allies in the West and are hard pressed in late '42 and early '43 to hold. Not to mention Italy is just a royal pain and most Axis have to garrison here with all her finest units and with all those ports you do it at your peril. The only way the Axis win this game as it was is utterly wiping out say the Soviets in '41... Total Destruction ...

Of course is a VP Win still possible I saw one in AAR, so if the Axis play for time I don't know that possibility is there depending on the skill level?

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RE: Balance Thread

Post by squatter »

In the PBEMs I have played, what has jumped out in particular is the size that the UK/Commonwealth war machine can grow to in a very short space of time.

The UK can survive battle of France with few losses, and basically match anything the Axis can throw at them in N Africa and Middle East in 40/41 (especially with the help of the disproportionate amount of bad weather in these zones that thwart offensive action). By the summer 41 the UK can easily field 5 mech/armour corps and many more inf corps. Did UK have 5 mech/armour corps even by 1945 irl?

And then the Canadians in the same time frame can field easily 3/4 inf corps - a bigger army than either Romania or Hungary at their point of entry to the war.

I also feel the ease of invasions is too high, its possible to put ashore as many corps in the game in 42 as were put ashore at D-day in 1944.

Possible tweaks (not suggesting all of them at once):

Reduce UK/Canada production

Further increase landing ship cost and/or landing ship build time

Don't allow UK to turn off repairs/upgrade to naval units (simulate necessity/desire to keep the empire connected/protected)

Decrease UK manpower

Decrease UK starting experience for ground units

Increase manpower/production Germany gains from conquering certain countries (representing huge amounts of willing conscripts/press-gang conscripts/slave-labour/captured equipment etc)




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RE: Balance Thread

Post by AlvaroSousa »

ORIGINAL: squatter

In the PBEMs I have played, what has jumped out in particular is the size that the UK/Commonwealth war machine can grow to in a very short space of time.

The UK can survive battle of France with few losses, and basically match anything the Axis can throw at them in N Africa and Middle East in 40/41 (especially with the help of the disproportionate amount of bad weather in these zones that thwart offensive action). By the summer 41 the UK can easily field 5 mech/armour corps and many more inf corps. Did UK have 5 mech/armour corps even by 1945 irl?

And then the Canadians in the same time frame can field easily 3/4 inf corps - a bigger army than either Romania or Hungary at their point of entry to the war.

I also feel the ease of invasions is too high, its possible to put ashore as many corps in the game in 42 as were put ashore at D-day in 1944.

Possible tweaks (not suggesting all of them at once):

Reduce UK/Canada production

Further increase landing ship cost and/or landing ship build time

Don't allow UK to turn off repairs/upgrade to naval units (simulate necessity/desire to keep the empire connected/protected)

Decrease UK manpower

Decrease UK starting experience for ground units

Increase manpower/production Germany gains from conquering certain countries (representing huge amounts of willing conscripts/press-gang conscripts/slave-labour/captured equipment etc)

Thanks for suggestions some of these have been already adjusted in the game.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by AlvaroSousa »

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Alvaro, in my last two games vs Allied Opponents of equal or greater skill. I find that the Axis can survive well into '42, do some damage but there it ends. The situation is about this, the Allies know they can give land and have time and the Allies can land anywhere they want with an army they can afford to lose and rebuild within a short period of time. So no matter what the Allies will always win when the opponents are of = skill by '43... Unless the Axis player makes zero errors, then I think the possibility of survival in '44 is doable.

No strategy or tactic I can see on 1.9 would change this the Axis are short about 10 or 15 Corps to defend against the Allies in the West and are hard pressed in late '42 and early '43 to hold. Not to mention Italy is just a royal pain and most Axis have to garrison here with all her finest units and with all those ports you do it at your peril. The only way the Axis win this game as it was is utterly wiping out say the Soviets in '41... Total Destruction ...

Of course is a VP Win still possible I saw one in AAR, so if the Axis play for time I don't know that possibility is there depending on the skill level?


I tend to agree here. In my matches with Hadros the games went to the last turn when I was the Allies. But I think he is a better player and he really ravaged the Russians in one game.

When I am the Axis I am crushed by 1944.
In my current game I took Gibraltar via Spain, took Norway, had 10 subs out in the Atlantic by 1941. I have drastically slowed the Western Allies. It's coming up on Summer of 1943 and they still can't invade Italy although they just took Algiers and are approaching Tripoli.

I did do a calculation on the sub run up from my games because I go heavy subs. Hadros is a little light or historical. He also does a 1941 Barbarossa

But over the many games we played he and I both noticed Germany ran out of manpower by 1943. They lacked a in production and manpower.

I still have really yet to try a straight 1941 Barbarossa with historical subs myself but I faced a few.

In the last Beta Germany did get a boost to production starting in 1942 that won't really affect the 1942 offensive. I also doubled the Waffen SS recruit events which by my calculations should keep their manpower up ok till later in the war. But little steps for balance. Russia did get a slowdown in status from 1941 to 1942 which impacts their production.

Sadly I can't play WarPlan all day as I have other things to do.

As for victory.... the VP system is the way to win.

If you match up 2 excellent World in Flames players it will come down to 1945 and victory objectives. Neither will blow out the other. So yes Germany should plan to play the game for VPs always.

The best game for both players is the nail biting one that goes to the last turn, and last objective. Thus why as the Axis you need to plan operationally and strategically.

But a 1942 option should be available for the Germans as a strategy. The Russian production is historical till 1941.

I am hoping my changes will allow a 1942 strategy for the Axis as an equal option to the 1941 option.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by sillyflower »

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


The best game for both players is the nail biting one that goes to the last turn, and last objective.

Hmmmmm

This is what happened in my first game vs sveint. I think that the stress took 5 years off my life, and I don't have many of them to spare these days.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by AlvaroSousa »

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


The best game for both players is the nail biting one that goes to the last turn, and last objective.

Hmmmmm

This is what happened in my first game vs sveint. I think that the stress took 5 years off my life, and I don't have many of them to spare these days.


LOL... see healthy dose of anxiety is good for a game.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by squatter »

I'm wondering whether there ought to be a similar capacity for air and armoured production as there are shipyards.

Ie depending on the country, they can only have x amount of armour units in production at any point in time. Call it vehicle plant capacity. This would be a) historical, b) set at levels to prevent players building nothing but armour
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by battlevonwar »

Another point here is the Germans don't have the men to fight a good and long war I have found. Not if there is a lot of fighting . . . I don't know where the Soviets are at but I will get you the figure for this game if you desire? Or USA/UK...

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RE: Balance Thread

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: squatter

In the PBEMs I have played, what has jumped out in particular is the size that the UK/Commonwealth war machine can grow to in a very short space of time.

The UK can survive battle of France with few losses, and basically match anything the Axis can throw at them in N Africa and Middle East in 40/41 (especially with the help of the disproportionate amount of bad weather in these zones that thwart offensive action). By the summer 41 the UK can easily field 5 mech/armour corps and many more inf corps. Did UK have 5 mech/armour corps even by 1945 irl?

And then the Canadians in the same time frame can field easily 3/4 inf corps - a bigger army than either Romania or Hungary at their point of entry to the war.

I also feel the ease of invasions is too high, its possible to put ashore as many corps in the game in 42 as were put ashore at D-day in 1944.

Possible tweaks (not suggesting all of them at once):

Reduce UK/Canada production

Further increase landing ship cost and/or landing ship build time

Don't allow UK to turn off repairs/upgrade to naval units (simulate necessity/desire to keep the empire connected/protected)

Decrease UK manpower

Decrease UK starting experience for ground units

Increase manpower/production Germany gains from conquering certain countries (representing huge amounts of willing conscripts/press-gang conscripts/slave-labour/captured equipment etc)


Have the Axis players in your game built large numbers of U-Boats? If you build an historical level of U-Boats (say 6 to go with the 3 the Germans start with) then I think you will find that the Brits and Canadian are too busy in 1940 and 1941 building MS and escorts to build large armies and LSs. You can keep them even more on the ropes if you send in the German surface fleet to raid the convoys (though you risk losing ships doing so).

Have your Axis players attacked the British hard in Egypt? Historically the Brits were forced to use a lot of production here replacing losses and using supply trucks.

If you don't build U-Boats and press the Brits in North Africa then I don't think you have any right to complain that the UK is too strong in 1941 or 1942. Historically if the Axis didn't do these things than the UK would have been a lot stronger in 41 and 42. If you want to go All-In on Russia that is fine, I do the same thing, but then you can't complain about British invasions all over the place.

As for the Canadians (of which I am one) you are correct that in the game the Canadians can build a much larger army than they did historically. But that is because historically Canada spent a high percentage of it's production on ships (by Wars end we had the 3rd largest navy in the World) and air units (I read somewhere that about 25% of Bomber Command were Canadian). Had Canada concentrated on building army divisions rather than naval and air units we could have had a much larger army. I think Australia (with about 80% of Canada's population and far less production capacity) built 15 divisions during the War.


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RE: Balance Thread

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: squatter

I'm wondering whether there ought to be a similar capacity for air and armoured production as there are shipyards.

Ie depending on the country, they can only have x amount of armour units in production at any point in time. Call it vehicle plant capacity. This would be a) historical, b) set at levels to prevent players building nothing but armour

I agree with you on this point and in fact posted something similar myself. It will probably have to wait for Warplan 2 though.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by squatter »

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: squatter

In the PBEMs I have played, what has jumped out in particular is the size that the UK/Commonwealth war machine can grow to in a very short space of time.

The UK can survive battle of France with few losses, and basically match anything the Axis can throw at them in N Africa and Middle East in 40/41 (especially with the help of the disproportionate amount of bad weather in these zones that thwart offensive action). By the summer 41 the UK can easily field 5 mech/armour corps and many more inf corps. Did UK have 5 mech/armour corps even by 1945 irl?

And then the Canadians in the same time frame can field easily 3/4 inf corps - a bigger army than either Romania or Hungary at their point of entry to the war.

I also feel the ease of invasions is too high, its possible to put ashore as many corps in the game in 42 as were put ashore at D-day in 1944.

Possible tweaks (not suggesting all of them at once):

Reduce UK/Canada production

Further increase landing ship cost and/or landing ship build time

Don't allow UK to turn off repairs/upgrade to naval units (simulate necessity/desire to keep the empire connected/protected)

Decrease UK manpower

Decrease UK starting experience for ground units

Increase manpower/production Germany gains from conquering certain countries (representing huge amounts of willing conscripts/press-gang conscripts/slave-labour/captured equipment etc)


Have the Axis players in your game built large numbers of U-Boats? If you build an historical level of U-Boats (say 6 to go with the 3 the Germans start with) then I think you will find that the Brits and Canadian are too busy in 1940 and 1941 building MS and escorts to build large armies and LSs. You can keep them even more on the ropes if you send in the German surface fleet to raid the convoys (though you risk losing ships doing so).

Have your Axis players attacked the British hard in Egypt? Historically the Brits were forced to use a lot of production here replacing losses and using supply trucks.

If you don't build U-Boats and press the Brits in North Africa then I don't think you have any right to complain that the UK is too strong in 1941 or 1942. Historically if the Axis didn't do these things than the UK would have been a lot stronger in 41 and 42. If you want to go All-In on Russia that is fine, I do the same thing, but then you can't complain about British invasions all over the place.

As for the Canadians (of which I am one) you are correct that in the game the Canadians can build a much larger army than they did historically. But that is because historically Canada spent a high percentage of it's production on ships (by Wars end we had the 3rd largest navy in the World) and air units (I read somewhere that about 25% of Bomber Command were Canadian). Had Canada concentrated on building army divisions rather than naval and air units we could have had a much larger army. I think Australia (with about 80% of Canada's population and far less production capacity) built 15 divisions during the War.



I have to admit I haven't faced a strong uboat strategy as the Allies yet.

So is it the case that the only way to avoid an early avalanche of UK/Canada ground units you absolutely must go for the 9 uboat strategy?

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RE: Balance Thread

Post by Harrybanana »

Another option I used (see my AAR) was to only build 3 U-Boats for a total of 6. But then I didn't invade either Norway or the Netherlands. Between them these 2 countries give the UK 78 MS. It would take 3 U-Boats well over a year to sink this many MS and, of course, they would be taking damage that needs to be repaired. But, of course, there is a potential down side to this strategy as well. I believe some players even build 9+ U-Boats (for a total of 12+) over the course of the 1st 2 years of the War. You just have to choose your poison.
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by ncc1701e »

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Heavy armor defense and tanks have been reduced by one by 1945.

Their progression was slowed for the other years.

Well a first surprise, I fail to take Belgium in one turn with this change. Netherlands and Luxembourg invasion were fine. I need to review my tactics...
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RE: Balance Thread

Post by AlvaroSousa »

The changes should not affect the early war years.
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