[1.07.01] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

[Akrakorn]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

No, the railway system is pretty much a line with the "6 directions" feeding into this single line, you can see it has used 28349 logistic points that turn on that single direction. The cities are surrounded by railway stations that feed into the main line. I use traffic signs to block logistic points from feeding into the single-hex railstations, so the logistic points DO NOT get split.

Those numbers do not add up:
If one direction has 28349 and the other has 9279 the SHQ should have 37628 total logistics from Railway alone!
As it only has 29689 and 28349 go west, that means there is only a connection of 1340 going to that first hex going east.

You somehow cut the railline comming from the east. Game propably has to use the lower 10% of capacity or trucks to move goods to the station literally one hex outside the city.
I would guess it is that 95% block on a main artery, set to also affect pull points!

No, that was the "initial points" overlay. This is the "used points" overlay, and the numbers match.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

No, the railway system is pretty much a line with the "6 directions" feeding into this single line, you can see it has used 28349 logistic points that turn on that single direction. The cities are surrounded by railway stations that feed into the main line. I use traffic signs to block logistic points from feeding into the single-hex railstations, so the logistic points DO NOT get split.

Those numbers do not add up:
If one direction has 28349 and the other has 9279 the SHQ should have 37628 total logistics from Railway alone!
As it only has 29689 and 28349 go west, that means there is only a connection of 1340 going to that first hex going east.

You somehow cut the railline comming from the east. Game propably has to use the lower 10% of capacity or trucks to move goods to the station literally one hex outside the city.
I would guess it is that 95% block on a main artery, set to also affect pull points!

No, that was the "initial points" overlay. This is the "used points" overlay, and the numbers match.

You already said the issue is the eastern army not getting supplies.
The east, for wich only 2212 of the 9200 points are used.
The east, wich wich the numbers do not add up on under the SHQ and the first Hex outside it.
The east, for wich a bottleneck was displayed right between those two hexes.

The Initial poitns where eactly what was needed for debugging this.

You messed up. It happens. You now know how and why. Just fix it.

[Akrakorn]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


Those numbers do not add up:
If one direction has 28349 and the other has 9279 the SHQ should have 37628 total logistics from Railway alone!
As it only has 29689 and 28349 go west, that means there is only a connection of 1340 going to that first hex going east.

You somehow cut the railline comming from the east. Game propably has to use the lower 10% of capacity or trucks to move goods to the station literally one hex outside the city.
I would guess it is that 95% block on a main artery, set to also affect pull points!

No, that was the "initial points" overlay. This is the "used points" overlay, and the numbers match.

You already said the issue is the eastern army not getting supplies.
The east, for wich only 2212 of the 9200 points are used.
The east, wich wich the numbers do not add up on under the SHQ and the first Hex outside it.
The east, for wich a bottleneck was displayed right between those two hexes.

The Initial poitns where eactly what was needed for debugging this.

You messed up. It happens. You now know how and why. Just fix it.

I said the west, not the east. The east is completely fine and actually got its replacements several turns ago. I don't know why you're getting so hung up on this; there's clearly something wrong, as the limitations are being ignored. More logistic points will fix the issues, yes, but the game shouldn't be ignoring its own SHQ logistic points limitations when they are there exactly to prioritize point usage when there aren't enough points available.

[Vic]

Akra,

Could you get me save file to vic@vrdesigns.net ?

Best wishes,
Vic

[Akrakorn]

Save file sent. Hopefully you can tell if this is indeed a bug or if it's just me not understanding something about the game.

[whollaborg]

As @Akrakorn is now surrendering our game I dear to peek in to this post.

he says that "There is no railway station in the city itself, so the points do not get refocused". Does this not mean that the city has only access to 5 percent of the throughput from all the rail capacity built around the city? Also, because the truckstations stop some of the through going supply points, if I remember correctly, maybe the capital city stops some of the supply points starting from those railstations whose only one hex rail goes to city.

Also the red opponent has had horrendeous problems with supply and adding maximum pull to city with SHQ1 allowed circa 25 per cent rise in preview of logistics and that worked for last turn to get some replacements to fronts. Last turn I redid that pull order again but it did not result in similiar rise in the prognosis for this turn Akrakorn tells about his resignation. Sometimes erasing all pulls from ends of logistical nets and different result is shown in prognosis of supply.

[zgrssd]

he says that "There is no railway station in the city itself, so the points do not get refocused". Does this not mean that the city has only access to 5 percent of the throughput from all the rail capacity built around the city?

The city only has directly access to the free part of the Railway logistics.
However trucks can ship the goods out of the city hex, to the railway hexes and from there let them go by train.
But the whole point of a Railway system is to get Logistics useage off the roads. Not putting a station directly under the SHQ breaks that.

The Railway station in the SHQ's city should be the first thing you build. Not doing that is just setting yourself up for failure 100% of the time.

P.S.: I really hope Vic allows sidegrading to replace buildings soon.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4837855

[Akrakorn]

ORIGINAL: whollaborg

As @Akrakorn is now surrendering our game I dear to peek in to this post.

he says that "There is no railway station in the city itself, so the points do not get refocused". Does this not mean that the city has only access to 5 percent of the throughput from all the rail capacity built around the city? Also, because the truckstations stop some of the through going supply points, if I remember correctly, maybe the capital city stops some of the supply points starting from those railstations whose only one hex rail goes to city.

No, because the city and the cities surrounding it have railheads. Truckstations do not refocus rail points.

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

The city only has directly access to the free part of the Railway logistics.

The city has access to all railstation points because there is a connection between point A (one of the single-hex railstations) and point B (the city and/or one of the other cities). If point A and B are connected with two railstations or a railstation and a railheads, all points between A and B have full access to the rail points.

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

However trucks can ship the goods out of the city hex, to the railway hexes and from there let them go by train.
But the whole point of a Railway system is to get Logistics useage off the roads. Not putting a station directly under the SHQ breaks that.

I really do not know what you mean by this. Trucks are not shipping anything to the railway hexes because the railway hexes are generating their own points. There is 0 need to put a station under an SHQ, it doesn't break anything. As long as point A and point B are connected, all points between A and B have full access to the logistic system, regardless of what is on them.

[Akrakorn]

I'm going to attach an image and a save to explain that it is not necessary to build railstations on the SHQ.


In the image, point A has a railstation and point B has a railhead. All other assets have been closed, so they are not active. The truckstation in the city doesn't refocus the railway points. The city has access to all ralway points despite not having an active railway station on it.

File with the save if you want to take a look: https://mega.nz/file/FpEl3KzQ#wfHhOccsI ... D96-sfnkxI

[zgrssd]

No, because the city and the cities surrounding it have railheads. Truckstations do not refocus rail points.

Who said anything about refocussing? Please stop harping on about refocussing. It has no relevancy here.

You got a bunch of stations, but they are all 200km outside the city hex.
You trucks have to move the goods 200km out of your city, just for them to catch a train. Plus what little free points you got access too without a station in the city.

The black Hexagon finally makes sense: Those first hexes were your Truck points running out. Your Trucks have been your Bottleneck all along. The capacity of your railsystem did not mater after all, it was you force the truck.

I really do not know what you mean by this. Trucks are not shipping anything to the railway hexes because the railway hexes are generating their own points. There is 0 need to put a station under an SHQ, it doesn't break anything. As long as point A and point B are connected, all points between A and B have full access to the logistic system, regardless of what is on them.

Goods can only enter or leave the railway System at a Station or Railhead.
Same way the Airbridge has fixed start and endpoints (indeed 90% chance it is mostly based on train code).

[Akrakorn]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Who said anything about refocussing? Please stop harping on about refocussing. It has no relevancy here.

Wholla mentioned refocusing. Please stop being so aggressive about this.

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Goods can only enter or leave the railway System at a Station or Railhead.

[AgentFransis]

He obviously has a railhead in the city...
The star railway layout is the currently the optimal way to increase capacity since it avoids refocusing and building more level 1 rail stations is more efficient than upgrading (since level 2 rail stations only add 2000 points, the same as a new level 1, but cost twice as much and twice as long to build).

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

I trust that manual as far as I can throw it.
This is a digital manual, meaning I can not even grab it. Wich means I can throw it 0 plank lenghts!

ORIGINAL: AgentFransis

He obviously has a railhead in the city...
The star railway layout is the currently the optimal way to increase capacity since it avoids refocusing and building more level 1 rail stations is more efficient than upgrading (since level 2 rail stations only add 2000 points, the same as a new level 1, but cost twice as much and twice as long to build).

Actually he does not. He wanted to "proove" that this is somehow a valid idea:

ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

I'm going to attach an image and a save to explain that it is not necessary to build railstations on the SHQ.


In the image, point A has a railstation and point B has a railhead. All other assets have been closed, so they are not active. The truckstation in the city doesn't refocus the railway points. The city has access to all ralway points despite not having an active railway station on it.

File with the save if you want to take a look: https://mega.nz/file/FpEl3KzQ#wfHhOccsI ... D96-sfnkxI

How everyone else builds their Logistics networks:

Code: Select all

SHQ
   Truck Station
     Road Network
   Rail Station
     Rail Network

How you build your Logistics network:

Code: Select all

SHQ
   Truck Station
     Road Network
       Rail Station
         Rail Network

Meaning you sucessfully took the Railway network and bottlenecked it to the Truck station under the SHQ. So it is good for sabotaging your SHQ logistics network, but not much else.

[Akrakorn]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
I trust that manual as far as I can throw it.
This is a digital manual, meaning I can not even grab it. Wich means I can throw it 0 plank lenghts!

That's great and all, but the manual was written by Vic, who knows more about how logistics work than you do.

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Meaning you sucessfully took the Railway network and bottlenecked it to the Truck station under the SHQ. So it is good for sabotaging your SHQ logistics network, but not much else.

The image and save posted clearly show that you can offload resources in cities WITHOUT having a railstation in it. As AgentFransis said, building multiple rail stations around cities and/or along the main railway line is the optimal way to build logistics as you avoid refocusing. You want to avoid refocusing as much as possible. The reason my original image is full of bottlenecks is because there aren't enough points in total, which we already knew as I have explained it. That is not the point of this thread, but rather that when there aren't enough points left, the SHQ should prioritize things according to the limitations put in place.

Truck stations and rail stations work independently to provide logistics points, you don't need any roads at all to use railways. Please, DO explain how exactly this sabotages the logistics network, because so far everything you've said is wrong.

[zgrssd]

That's great and all, but the manual was written by Vic, who knows more about how logistics work than you do.

1) That a programmer knows every nook and cranny of a Programm he is writing is a bad rumor. Please do not spread it.
2) That he never forgets to update the Manual is ... a theory that has never been confirmed.

[Akrakorn]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

That's great and all, but the manual was written by Vic, who knows more about how logistics work than you do.

1) That a programmer knows every nook and cranny of a Programm he is writing is a bad rumor. Please do not spread it.
2) That he never forgets to update the Manual is ... a theory that has never been confirmed.

Valid points, but so far we have:
1) The explanation that it works.
2) Proof that it works with the images and save provided.

What does the other part of the argument have?

[Vic]

Took a look at the savefile.

Thanks for sending it over.

There is indeed some code that is being overoptimistic.

I am making changes for the next Open Beta and this should be fixed.

Best wishes,
Vic