Alter Group Status

[1nutworld]

Looking for some help here as I'm playing this scenario and what appears to be a bearing only launch from an enemy (likely sub) was made on my particular group.

Now, being bearing only launch - at least that is my suspicion - the vampire in question has now in the screen shot passed by my formation, and I'm TRYING unsuccessfully to return my group to it's previous course/speed and "mission state".

However, despite the vampire no longer being an active "threat" having passed by both my units - until the vampire disappears my group goes into "engage defensive" state with full blown throttle and all sensors active and defensive course changes apply.

I attempted to DROP the vampire contact as to indicate to my group that it need not be concerned with said vampire contact but all that did was my various sensors/crew on watch was "detect" said vampire again and reset "engage defensive" posture.

Is there some way to tell my current controlled units to "ignore" said contact as no longer a threat? Dropping it didn't work.

[thewood1]

Off the top of my head, I think I have used unassign ('U') to do something similar. But its a little foggy trying to pull that back to the working part of my brain.

[1nutworld]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Off the top of my head, I think I have used unassign ('U') to do something similar. But its a little foggy trying to pull that back to the working part of my brain.

maybe I tried that? I know the thought popped into my mind but again the sensors/lookouts "detected" the now OUTBOUND threat as being that....a threat (even though in all actuality it no longer was one) and deemed it as "threat" still.

But the programming of the sim, over-rode my commands of disabling sensors, returning to original speed/course headings and acted under "engaged defensive" posture.

Meanwhile in my head, the CO is going "BZ gents, that vampire is no longer a threat let's return to heading/course speed and try and locate this enemy that has a bead on us, and take them out before they do it to us"

[thewood1]

Can you post the scenario so I can try a couple things?

[thewood1]

I tried unassign and it went to plotted course a few seconds and then back to engaged defensive. I also turned off auto-evasion and it stayed on course, but don't think thats what you're looking for.

[1nutworld]

Thanks for the efforts. I guess it's just one of those things we will have to deal with as part of the sim programming.

From someone that probably overthinks the analysis of what is happening....it's just frustrating when these types of glitches take place. Because we all know in 'real world' once a "threat" is passed, everything returns back to normal "steaming" with all emergency preparations stopped. Granted you may not cancel GQ in 5 minutes...but using this situation, once the vampire has passed the formation, it's back to regular course, speed and EMCON.

[thewood1]

I am not so sure that is 100% correct. I think its fairly reasonable that a ship stays on high alert after a missile passes close by. In fact, ships might be way too willing to back off its sensors after a threat passes by. I would imagine that if one missile misses, a commander feels they should leave the radar on for a while to make sure nothing else is coming. Thats why I am curious about the scenario. I'd like to see how long after the engagement the group went back to its course and shut off its radars. How close was the missile?

I just tried the battle of Latakia with the Syrians throwing a Styx at a patrol boat. The radar came on when the ASM was visually detected. The missile passed close by. The radar went off again after 7 minutes. In that seven minutes, they detected four enemy ships. Also, by then, the missile was probably 10 nm behind the ship. I don't have any issue with that. Its not a glitch, there is only so much the devs can do. There are things you can do in ROEs prior to the engagement, but it will leave you vulnerable.

So the question becomes, what is the doctrine for various navies over various timeframes for how to behave after a missile attack.

[KnightHawk75]

@1nutworld

My experience has been to just disable auto-evasion period, same for aircraft to lessor but almost as often extent, for this exact reason, they stay "engaged-defensive" for too long and as a result do things that I don't want them to and are often counter productive. You could try ignoring the contact by actually flagging the contact as filtered-out (contact|filter-out), that may not work for threats though idk, you'll have to test. Sometimes you can try unit|disenage-target and select the vampire...but even if that works it's probably only temporary.

Yes "U" will temporarily clear it (and sometimes repeated U's may stop it), but in doing so also removes the unit\group from assigned mission and then you gotta reassign it back.

[thewood1]

SO I come back to one of my original questions. How long after a missile passes should everything go back to normal?

[1nutworld]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I am not so sure that is 100% correct. I think its fairly reasonable that a ship stays on high alert after a missile passes close by. In fact, ships might be way too willing to back off its sensors after a threat passes by. I would imagine that if one missile misses, a commander feels they should leave the radar on for a while to make sure nothing else is coming. Thats why I am curious about the scenario. I'd like to see how long after the engagement the group went back to its course and shut off its radars. How close was the missile? ........So the question becomes, what is the doctrine for various navies over various timeframes for how to behave after a missile attack.

I know in my time serving, that while we never had this particular scenario take place (to the best of my knowledge - I wasn't in Operations) we would stay at GQ status for usually an hour to make sure that things were back to "normal".

[KnightHawk75]

My view - for the purposes of the game as soon as it doesn't have an active threat that put it in engaged defensive.

[thewood1]

SO I guess my question is timing and what constitutes an active threat?

[KnightHawk75]

Well if in the op's snapshot if the contact in question that triggered|triggering the state is on a trajectory heading away from you, and gaining distance on sensor hits those are helpful data points to suggest that vamp contact is probably not a threat to that unit any longer.

[thewood1]

OK, that might work if you don't have a re-engage capable ASM, but what if it is re-engage-capable? Should the ship just go back on its course or should it be worried about that? What if contact is lost with the ASM and there is no confirmation of it passing?

Does this apply to torpedoes, which might be more likely to re-engage? WHat about aircraft?

I'm just trying to think of the times you might want to ship/group to not just go on its way. I think currently there is a programmed time on engaged defensive. I am not sure what that timer is. Should that be configurable?

[1nutworld]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

OK, that might work if you don't have a re-engage capable ASM, but what if it is re-engage-capable? Should the ship just go back on its course or should it be worried about that? What if contact is lost with the ASM and there is no confirmation of it passing?

Does this apply to torpedoes, which might be more likely to re-engage? WHat about aircraft?

I'm just trying to think of the times you might want to ship/group to not just go on its way. I think currently there is a programmed time on engaged defensive. I am not sure what that timer is. Should that be configurable?

I am of the belief that it should be configurable, but I'm making the leap (assumption) that the Devs have given this consideration, and have come up with what they determine is an acceptable time programmed into the sim.

[thewood1]

Might want to submit was a feature request, but I would assume this applies to any threat, not just missiles.

[KnightHawk75]

I'm just trying to think of the times you might want to ship/group to not just go on its way.

Loitering munitions,re-attack munitions cases and such are not lost on me, there are going to be times I agree you may not want to deem the coast clear yet from a contact just on those 1|2 factors alone. Ultimately though if the ship can't defend against it I'm not sure what is gained by the alert state other than a big glaring location beacon with everything on which only helps loitering munitions re-engage i think (or a loitering unit far away waiting on a smaller AreaOfAmbiguity to fire). It's not that I don't think certain things can do a 180 or 140 etc it's just that good percent of the time it's not the case (that might change in coming years). I do think it's a helpful data point to participate in the process, another would might be what you mention, air contact vs underwater contact. The first might be considered not a threat in op example but maybe a torpedo is not till it clears a certain avg range. It's hard problem to solve well w/o letting the ai cheat info wise, but think there are opportunities for improvement.

If it's currently just simply based on time (once first triggered) then at least I better understand why it acts the way it does(is that the case for aircraft as well?). I was thinking it was keeping track of the contact(s) that triggered the d/e state. Configurable could help, not sure it would help in the op's case though, guess that would just depend on the time involved.

Perhaps if the contact(s) that have triggered the e/d state were tracked and then are evaluated every so often (minute?) for (filtered-out flag | disappeared |destroyed) state and removed, if all gone stop the defensive engagement status on that unit. In the op's example that would have helped a human player get what was desired, and on the ai side with lua assistance it could be chosen (via custom logic) to then flag a contact as filtered-out to achieve the same result. It then also presents and option to filter-out any contact you don't want to to trigger the state to begin with, there might be some downside by-products to flagging filtered-out I'm not thinking about on ai side though.

[thewood1]

I'm not sure its just based on time. I think there is an evaluation for distance, at least I think I saw that in Battle for Latakia. I'll check when I can. btw, I always think of the AI-side of things, not just human. I am also concerned in large scenarios with literally hundreds of missiles and thousands of units, what the added CPU load would be. There are already cries of slow downs in large scenarios and adding that load won't help.

[Parel803]

My thoughts, not important, on the real life. In real life the back to normal could go in steps. So there are different Words/procedures for it. They might differ between navies and situations. Going back from RS1 to RS2 state, as mentioned earlier, could take some more time. Depending on the assesment of the CO, based on the operational pictures, intel, staff assesment, etc. Still al weapon and sensors stay manned.
The downscale after the missile attack goes pretty fast, everybody checks his picture for more missiles on radarscreen, EW, etc. When there is none go back to search setting and manouvre back to screen and protect the HVU. Then assessing if there could more missiles, nr of a/c with nr of missiles compared to missiles seen in the force.
You hope to know the threat and the possibilities on regaining. When the missile passes most of the time, I think, you go back as before the attack or try to.
For torpedo's, the sonar operator might here it's doppler and with that if it's passed and regaining. So they might first do the anti-torpedo manouvre and check. In this case, depending on assets, you wanna harras or destroy the sub so there no second torpedo. I think the FFG's (and others) have to keep in mind to protect the HVU without sinking themselfs
I wouldn't know how to compare that to the game and the different scens, sorry.

with regards GJ