A brief look to the future.

Luskan · Post by **Luskan** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:01 am

Ok, all the hype about UV, and when we got it the hype was all about WITP, and now we've got it (almost) and the hype needs a new direction.

So what are we all going to be begging for when we've finally got WITP? Where should the gaming future be pointed?

Mr.Frag · Post by **Mr.Frag** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:16 am

I want the world!!! Nothing less will do.

Seriously, perhaps Harpoon IV will actually ship and get me my naval fix for a while, but like, I've been waiting about 20 years now

Too bad Matrix didn't buy them up.

Mike Scholl · Post by **Mike Scholl** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:44 pm

What flaming moron came up with the concept of "real time strategy game".
To play a "strategic" model of WW II in "real time" would take 6 years (real
time from Sept. 1939 to August 1945) It's a truely stupid idea. About the
largest "decision-making process" (game) you can make in "real time" is at
the Platoon Level---the number of pieces (men) you can see/keep track of
as one person. That's TACTICAL..., and not even on a large scale.

Realistically, what 2by3 should probably plan on for the first year after WitP
released is "patching" it and retro-patching UV! Probably what they should
be doing now is "re-doing the alpha map" and system to fix basic problems.
Given the "lessons" of UV's release, they can count on a number if big-time
problems as well as "chrome polishes" that will need to be addressed.

A "UV in the Med" release is about the only forseeable development of the
system that makes sense in the "sea-land-air" environment.

Raverdave · Post by **Raverdave** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:05 pm

UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED ! UV MED !:D

Raverdave · Post by **Raverdave** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:07 pm

Mr.Frag wrote: Seriously, perhaps Harpoon IV will actually ship and get me my naval fix for a while, but like, I've been waiting about 20 years now

Too bad Matrix didn't buy them up.

Amen brother!

Sonny · Post by **Sonny** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:51 pm

WW2 in UV style would be nice. Scale it differently - 100 miles/hex.
Way too complicated though. A much more representative ground combat routine would have to be developed among other things. Would be nice to multi-player it with the ability to have Pacific and European commanders for each side. Ah, dreams.

Realistically - the Med would be so nice - at least the southern half of the Med.

Luskan · Post by **Luskan** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:30 pm

Personally speaking I have to agree with Mike Scholl. RTS games were fantastic when Dune 2 came out. Then they got a bit better with warlords and then didn't improve for a long time and slightly (only slightly) improved with Hearts of iron.

However, as far as the UV criticism goes, I've been a pc gamer for a long time now and although it took a while for UV to get polished - the point is that it was polished, and input from the community was welcome. Some programs ship in a shittier state than anything matrix has ever come up with, and then take a year to come up with 2 crap patches.

Hornblower · Post by **Hornblower** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:39 pm

Uv Med got my vote. without question. Land combat from Crete, Toubrok, to Casino, Patton. Defence of Malta, Allied navy pulled to paper thin.. Need I continue?

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:52 pm

Global WW2 WITP style?

That KA-THUNK you just heard was Gary Grigsby hitting the floor.

MEDIC!

Mike_B20 · Post by **Mike_B20** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:07 pm

OMG, you guys are talking about UV Med !
After WITP comes out, it is my guess Matrix will be years bringing it to a reasonable state...probably we can forget about the many fixes UV needs.
If you guys keep clamoring for UV Med you may just get your wish...and then you can forget about the fixes WITP will sorely need.
So it goes

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:42 pm

My guess is that WitP will get all the attention it needs in terms of patches. From the discussion and AARs the testers have been so good as to give us, the design team learned a lot from UV and are learning more as they round WitP into publishable shape. We have already been promised retrofit of the needed items to UV after WitP is done, so UV Med should not be a particularly big leap, and "bugs" should be at a minimum considering how much progress has been made in refining the basic game engine.

The subject is, in my opinion, perfectly suited to treatment using the UV engine. The relatively cramped waters of the Mediterranean will channel naval activity into a few well-defined corridors. The land combat involved fairly limited numbers of troops (particularly when compared to WitP and considering that the eastern and western fronts will only be abstract influences on reinforcements and withdrawals). The focus will be squarely on logistics and the ability to resupply and reinforce critical points (Malta, Alexandria, Tripoli, and Suda, to name a few). Air power will rule, naval forces will try, as in UV, to support the efforts of ground forces, and your ability to take and hold critical bases will determine whether you win or lose.

This game would present the design team with the pleasant task of modelling German and Italian forces, with all their idiosyncrasies. I suggest that figuring out which time span to cover, what the scenarios should look like, what the victory conditions ought to be, how to handle significant out-of-theater developments that affect in-theater campaign planning and force availability would be a designer's dream.

And on and on and on. Listen to Raver. He knows how good it will be.

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:42 pm

Dont think it will be years. Keep in mind one HUGE difference between WitP and UV......WitP's development has benefited from UV's experience. That was a major reason why UV was created....to be the test bed and prototype for WitP.

The game is still just in Alpha but already it has had many things added and existing items and bugs ironed out thanks to UV having been released previously.

Sure there will no doubt still be patch issues once it releases, but i'm figuring it wont be nearly as lengthy a process as UV was because UV was because of it's newness

Damien Thorn · Post by **Damien Thorn** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:20 pm

[QUOTE=pasternakski] (UV med), in my opinion, perfectly suited to treatment using the UV engine. The relatively cramped waters of the Mediterranean will channel naval activity into a few well-defined corridors. The land combat involved fairly limited numbers of troops (particularly when compared to WitP and considering that the eastern and western fronts will only be abstract influences on reinforcements and withdrawals). The focus will be squarely on logistics and the ability to resupply and reinforce critical points (Malta, Alexandria, Tripoli, and Suda, to name a few). Air power will rule, naval forces will try, as in UV, to support the efforts of ground forces, and your ability to take and hold critical bases will determine whether you win or lose.

QUOTE]

It is hard enough for the Japanese navy to stand up to the British and Americans. The poor old Itialians (with the few German ships in the Med ) wouldn't stand a chance. Also, as you mention, land-based air power would be even more unbalancing than it is in UV. That's something we don't need in a naval game.

Capt. Harlock · Post by **Capt. Harlock** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:14 pm

I wouldn't count the Italians out completely. They had some excellent ships: what was lacking was leadership and fuel. The first can be supplied by the players, and the second could be helped by alternate scenarios and difficulty levels. Note also that the British had a firm policy of not allowing capital ships to go all the way to Malta.

BTW, the only combined land-sea-air computer game on the Med that I'm aware of is Grigsby's ancient "Bomb Alley", programmed in uncompiled BASIC for the Apple II. Does anyone know of anything more recent?

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:37 pm

and even with the fuel question there's alot of controversy about that too.....the Germans claimed that they sent more than enough for the Italians to operate at times when they chose not too.

With better and more aggressive leadership, i also think they could do much better than they did......though in sub warefare i still think your going to see many an Italian sub go glug glug

also, night fighting against well trained and radar equipped British forces is best to be avoided

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:58 pm

I didn't say that air power would be "unbalancing." I said it would be a vital part of the "mix."

All you have to do to whet your appetite is to read some of the historical accounts of the desperate days in the Mediterranean theater for both sides. Read, for example, about the brutal experience of the Pedestal convoy attempt at resupplying Malta. Consider what would have happened had Rommel been able to break through and capture Egypt.

As far as the Italians are concerned, they gave the British plenty of trouble. Better command (yours) at Cape Matapan could have swung the balance. Less favorable results from the Taranto raid would have given the Italians a numerical superiority in capital ships in the Mediterranean that the British would have been hard pressed to counter (they had plenty of problems enough as it was).

Add the U-boat threat (take a look sometime at the British naval units sunk in the Med by submarines), and you're ready to roll. I haven't even mentioned radio controlled bombs, Italian frogmen, or any of the other neat stuff...

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:00 am

Hi, The question for any massive game is map and time scales.
I think the map scale should be what infantry can march in one 8 hour period.
(20 miles per hex) 1245 hexes around the equator and 395 hexes from North Pole to South Pole. The hard part of course will be the art work for the maps.
The OB's will be rather easy, except for the need to break down all those divisions into Bn size units.
At this scale there would be no 'Pools' since material would appear in the factory hex.
A 24 hour turn would work provided it was broken down into 4 hour 'pulses' and players could enter orders by pulse.

Example of order to Infantry Bn to march 1 (NE) 0 (rest 4 hours) 1 (NE) 0 (rest)
(unit will have moved 20 miles to NE) Now suppose it is next to enemy unit to the east 0 (rest 4 hours) 3 (attack to east last 4 hours of day 2000-2400) So unit would be making a night attack. (Simple huh?)

TF orders would not require 'rest' periods so they would just be 112233 (move direction 1 for 8 hours then 2 for 8 hours then 3 for 8 hours)

OK see how easy it is?

Fallschirmjager · Post by **Fallschirmjager** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:07 am

A new WIR

Mike Scholl · Post by **Mike Scholl** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:31 am

Mogami wrote:Hi, The question for any massive game is map and time scales.
I think the map scale should be what infantry can march in one 8 hour period.
(20 miles per hex) 1245 hexes around the equator and 395 hexes from North Pole to South Pole. The hard part of course will be the art work for the maps.
The OB's will be rather easy, except for the need to break down all those divisions into Bn size units.
At this scale there would be no 'Pools' since material would appear in the factory hex.
A 24 hour turn would work provided it was broken down into 4 hour 'pulses' and players could enter orders by pulse.

Example of order to Infantry Bn to march 1 (NE) 0 (rest 4 hours) 1 (NE) 0 (rest)
(unit will have moved 20 miles to NE) Now suppose it is next to enemy unit to the east 0 (rest 4 hours) 3 (attack to east last 4 hours of day 2000-2400) So unit would be making a night attack. (Simple huh?)

TF orders would not require 'rest' periods so they would just be 112233 (move direction 1 for 8 hours then 2 for 8 hours then 3 for 8 hours)

OK see how easy it is?

If you are going to dream, dream BIG! Why not ask for a map using a standard
batallion frontage of one kilometer per hex? Then you can really fight the ground
war, and throw in "firing ranges" for the ship battles! Of course, you will need
100+ players per side, and a century or two to play---but what a great legacy
to leave your kids. Just imagine the lawyers wrangling over who inherits "Dear
Old Dad's" position as CO of TF 58, or General commanding the 3rd Panzer Army,
or......

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:36 am

Mogami wrote: (20 miles per hex) 1245 hexes around the equator and 395 hexes from North Pole to South Pole.

Wait a minute, Mog, you appear to be living on a planet that has the approximate shape of a jelly-filled donut. j 1245 x 20 miles = 24,900, which is a pretty fair approximation of the distance around the equator, but 395 x 2 = 790, which x 20 miles = 17,800 miles, about 7,100 miles or so short of the actual longitudinal circumference of the earth. What you want is 622.5 hexes from north pole to south pole to make 'er round.

Maybe this is why you are so famous for good results in airstrikes that travel north to south or south to north - your planes don't have to fly as far as everyone else's...

A brief look to the future.

A brief look to the future.

FLAMING MORON??

UV Med

UV Med

The Big One

AS LONG AS YOU ARE DREAMING...