BoA

[ncc1701e]

What I found surprising right now is that, in one PBEM game, all MMs sunk are on UK side each turn. There is 0 MM sunk on USA side and they are at war with me since six months.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

What I found surprising right now is that, in one PBEM game, all MMs sunk are on UK side each turn. There is 0 MM sunk on USA side and they are at war with me since six months.

At last, my first USA MM sunk...

[stjeand]

baloo7777 I am not upset and do not think you are cheating at all, so do not take it that way.

I just mean something HAS to be wrong. It should be 100% impossible for the Germans to wipe out all of the escorts before April 1940.
When they are gone the BOA is over.
And then in our mirror game my Uboats take nearly twice as many hits as MM they kill.
And in BOTH games no air has been involved.

It is just very strange that just these two games are this uneven.

I guess you have to have a few.

[baloo7777]

BTW... in another PBEM game with me as Axis, I've sunk 14 mm and 2 escorts before I took a UBoat damage point... then last turn I took 3 UBoat damage to 2 subs in 1 group and sank 1 mm, and it's like turn 7.
In another game my Axis opponent continues to send 1 UBoat Fleet at a time to the N.Atlantic where I have 10 escorts and I've sunk 2 UBoats and badly damaged some at least another 4 or 5 times and it's about turn 24. I don't know what to say because his land forces are doing very well, so I guess he knows what he wants to do in the BOA.

[MorningDew]

I am clearly missing something about the BOA. My convoy escort advancement is 1943, Detection 1942, 9 escorts + bonus and I continuously fail to have any impact on subs.

[stjeand]

baloo in our game...


32 MM sunk 9 escorts sunk 0 damage to Uboats. YES ZERO

Sorry Alvaro but I do not buy that this is even remotely possible or should have any chance of ever happening.

I want to see if we can go the entire game without any damage to Uboats. I may happen at this rate.

And keep in mind...the CVs and DDs are on the convoy routes...

Heres to hoping that baloo by accident disbands his Uboats.

[MorningDew]

CVs and DDs still feel like playing whack-a-mole - UBoats just move more than 24 hexes away. I wish the UBoats lost effectiveness in attacks after they move or that their attack occurred when the Allies turn ends, not begins, allowing the Allies to respond to UBoat movements.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

I am clearly missing something about the BOA. My convoy escort advancement is 1943, Detection 1942, 9 escorts + bonus and I continuously fail to have any impact on subs.

In our game, my 9 subs are all at Attack Submarine 1943 level. 89 days before reaching 1944 level. And we are in June 1942. [:D]

[MorningDew]

Next turn, same result. Zero damage to Uboats. My escorts whoever are taking losses regularly.

Trying to understand if this is WAD and to be expected, it is WAD and I am doing something wrong, or something is wrong.

This is with the most recent beta BTW.

[MorningDew]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

I am clearly missing something about the BOA. My convoy escort advancement is 1943, Detection 1942, 9 escorts + bonus and I continuously fail to have any impact on subs.

In our game, my 9 subs are all at Attack Submarine 1943 level. 89 days before reaching 1944 level. And we are in June 1942. [:D]

Well - my escorts are 1943 and useless.

[ncc1701e]

They are not useless. Don't you notice I am not scoring like before on MMs?

And that my subs are taking more step losses.

[Nirosi]

I think that anything under 1 escort for 5 MM brings a penalty (unless you reach 10 escorts). Those convoy lanes do not seem very well protected under 10 escorts. At 10 escorts on a lane (11 for spares) there should be a very visible difference from the games I have played.

[kennonlightfoot]

I suspect (since I don't know actual odds used) that the variation we see is the "snake eyes" problem. The odds of a hit are so low that its is like throwing snakes eyes multiple times on a pair of dice. The odds are very low but then someone does it turn after turn. In the old days you could knock the game board, say oops, guess we will have to start over.[:D]

[MorningDew]

It might be a luck issue, or bad play issue, or just exactly what it should be. I'm not saying the results are wrong, just confusing to my current understanding. For example why are escorts so easy to take out, but subs aren't?

But I have likely not calibrated to some changes...yet.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

CVs and DDs still feel like playing whack-a-mole - UBoats just move more than 24 hexes away. I wish the UBoats lost effectiveness in attacks after they move or that their attack occurred when the Allies turn ends, not begins, allowing the Allies to respond to UBoat movements.

If U-Boats move more than 24 hexes than they only do half damage, but take full damage if they are hit.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

Next turn, same result. Zero damage to Uboats. My escorts whoever are taking losses regularly.

Trying to understand if this is WAD and to be expected, it is WAD and I am doing something wrong, or something is wrong.

This is with the most recent beta BTW.

My 2 observations about the BOA:

1. There is a lot of luck involved. In most games the U-boats (mine or my opponents) will for several turns in a row sink large numbers of MS and escorts every turn. Then for several turns in a row they will sink vey few MS and escorts while taking hits themselves. Then it will switch back again. So the luck seems to go back and forth until finally (usually in 42 or 43) the escorts seem to consistently score more U-Boat hits then they lose MS and escorts. But in a minority of games it seems like either the U-Boats are having happy hunting from the beginning until the end, or else they do terrible right from the get go.

2.The number of escorts has absolutely no effect on how many MS get sunk. So the job of escorts is not to "protect" the convoys in the sense of reducing the number of MS sunk. The sole job of the escorts is to get more hits on the U-Boats than escort sunk. This is very difficult to do until tech level 43 is reached. It is impossible to do unless you always use the maximum number of escorts. So if I only have say 14 escorts I would not put 7 in each of the North Atlantic and South Atlantic because the odds of my 7 escorts sinking more U-Boats than escorts lost is not good. So I am just going to lose in both zones. Instead I will put 14 in one convoy zone and put 0 in the other. This increases my chances of getting hits on the U-Boats in one of the convoy zones while making sure I am not outnumbered in any zone. It is especially useful to put extra (ie more than 10) escorts in a convoy zone where I know my opponent will get 2 attacks because there are 2 convoys operating. This way I will get 2 chances at maximum effectiveness and if I lose some escorts in the first attack I will still have 10 for the 2nd attack.

So applying what I said to your screenshot, I would say that your opponent only sinking 5 MS with 2 attacks of 3 subs is actually pretty poor shooting by him. I think an "average" turn is if the U-Boats sink 1.33 MS per U-Boat attack. So that would be 8 MS. I am not sure why you only had 7 escorts; if it is because that is all the escorts you have, or if it is because you split them up between 2 or more zones. Either way, I just wouldn't use 7 escorts because the odds are very good that I will lose more escorts than I will sink U-Boats. So I am not surprised that your 7 escorts did not score any hits. This does mean that some times it is a bit of a guessing game as to whether the German is going to raid the NA or the SA, but that is Ok, that is part of the cat and mouse fun of the game.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

I am clearly missing something about the BOA. My convoy escort advancement is 1943, Detection 1942, 9 escorts + bonus and I continuously fail to have any impact on subs.

MorningDew, Detection & Electronics tech does not benefit escorts at all. It is only useful for aircraft with that advancement. I notice that you have invested in SB so I assume you have built some strategic bombers. If so you may want to convert some of them to "Detection and Electronics" and use them to hunt subs.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

They are not useless. Don't you notice I am not scoring like before on MMs?

And that my subs are taking more step losses.

The escorts have no effect on the number of MS sunk. However, I think Alvaro has built something into the game so that MS become more difficult to sink as the game progresses.

Am I right Alvaro?

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

I think that anything under 1 escort for 5 MM brings a penalty (unless you reach 10 escorts). Those convoy lanes do not seem very well protected under 10 escorts. At 10 escorts on a lane (11 for spares) there should be a very visible difference from the games I have played.

+1

[MorningDew]

Thanks all - a heavier investment in escorts early and often it is then.