Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective)

[Light4bettor]

Don't know if my screen shot will post but here it goes:

This is an OKH produced sitrep (situation report) as of the evening of 02 Aug 1941 AGS. It would be somewhat equivalent in location to finishing all your MPs on Turn 6 (27 July 1941). 14 Pz and 60 Mot divs are a little over 200kms from Poltava as the crow flies on this date (and of course still on the wrong side of the Dnper).

It seems plausible that if AGS had not found itself pocketing and destroying forces in the vicinity of Uman (in the mid July to early Aug period; apprx. 3 game turns), then they may well have had the combat power, time, and logistics to push hard toward Poltava (during the time frame in question). Now, how well they could have been supplied and with ammo and fuel once they made it to that area is another question. On the balance, I think at least closely approaching Poltava at this stage of the war (at the finish of turn 6) is at least within the realm of possibility. However, it seems it should be in a slightly more precarious position.

Also need to take into account the Soviet player's disposition and other factors, e.g., maybe he/she has weighted the Northern fronts at the expense of the Southern, deciding not to seriously contest southern Ukraine.

[Hanny]

That’s from the LoC resource Ww2 sit reps, which is online free to download for the war in the Eastyou could also use Glantz weekly maps which would give you where a formation was, where it went by each week, both will give you about the same outcome. 14 panzer in game has over achieved by around 1100 klm to 800 historically achieved. You can cost out mps to get a more accurate explanation of weekly movement and supply, and I don’t have the 2.0 numbers, but 14 panzer is achieving around 10 hexes a week in game, when we know from QM reports it was losing c40% of MTV to lack of spares by end off July to more far less distances.

[Nix77]

I got those Barbarossa day-by-day 21.6. - 6.12.1941 maps from Digital Archive, absolutely an amazing resource.

I guess a big deviation from history in Bobo's game is the Soviet side's reluctance to hold the river lines. Historically Dnepr river south of Kiev was a difficult obstacle for the Germans, and I think any Soviet player should strive to make it so in the game too. First crossings were not made until late August, with major breakthroughs in September.

My strategy as the Soviet player would be to make the Germans pay every extra MP possible to cross any of the rivers, minor and especially major. Rivers are a huge MP sink for the units and supply if controlled by the opposition.

Here's the situation on 11.9.1941, that would be Turn 12-13 in the game. Dnepr still being the barrier blocking the majority of German southern advance.

[rmeckman]

ORIGINAL: MAS

I believe it's due to the presence of the 9th army HQ and an FBD creating a "super depot", but I'm just guessing based on what I think I've read in these posts. I don't understand how a 9800 tons freight capacity can actually receive 29,948 tons.

I think WiTE2 still draws railyard capacity from near the depot sending freight and not the receiving depot, so the 30k tons of freight arriving at Vitebsk was mainly using railyards around Berlin. The 9800 tons at Vitebsk would be used to entrain units nearby or to send freight from a depot in the area that can forward freight on to other depots.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: rmeckman

ORIGINAL: MAS

I believe it's due to the presence of the 9th army HQ and an FBD creating a "super depot", but I'm just guessing based on what I think I've read in these posts. I don't understand how a 9800 tons freight capacity can actually receive 29,948 tons.

I think WiTE2 still draws railyard capacity from near the depot sending freight and not the receiving depot, so the 30k tons of freight arriving at Vitebsk was mainly using railyards around Berlin. The 9800 tons at Vitebsk would be used to entrain units nearby or to send freight from a depot in the area that can forward freight on to other depots.

yes, the rail capacity is derived from the location it starts in, so its what is around Berlin that matters for the first stage.

what then happens is that the cost of moving freight steadily escalates till it can't move from X - y in a single turn, so gets dropped off at an intermediate depot (which is why you need to build and retain a chain of depots from the NSS to the front line).

As an eg, send a division by train say from axis held Novgorod and you will consume the local rail stock pretty quickly, send it from Berlin and it'll entrain (the issue that remains is how far it will reach)

[821Bobo]

Turn 8, 10.8.1941

After few turns break, series of unpleasant events this week. Partisan activity is increasing and garrison shortage in the west once again.

Enemy launched couple of mostly successful attacks and opened the small pocket in south.

Soviet air force bombarded railyards in Mogilev(is not connected to my supply network yet) and Gomel. The whole of JG51 was stationed in Gomel but none of the fighters intercepted, otherwise that could have been a nice slaughter. Anyway Soviets did lost 160 planes.



Didn't gain much territory this week but there were some local successes.

AGN

In the north Tallinn was taken, 4th Panzer Group crossed the Luga on a broader sector and the main rail connecting Leningrad with the rest of Soviet Union have been cut. I hope this will cause supply difficulty for the Soviets.




AGC

Very limited activity in the center. I have launched the first attack on Smolensk and surprisingly the city fell. I was expecting some 2 or 3 deliberate attacks will be needed, definitely I got lucky here.
Panzers are still resting, more infantry is needed.




AGS

Kiev was taken but other than that only trying to get into the contact with enemy. Panzers are resting here as well.




Italians arrived.




Again bad weather forecast for next week. Rain from north towards Smolensk.

[MAS]

LoC resource Ww2 sit reps

If it's not too much trouble, could you post a link to these maps?

[Hanny]

Hi

I am using the wife’s I pad while we are moving house so the best I can do is say, search for library of Congress world war2 military situation maps, that will take you to a selection for all fronts, the eastern front one is the one your after.Once you find it, IE, you have the title and author,you can download as a pdf with ease.

[Light4bettor]

https://www.loc.gov/item/map51000141/


You can download it in different resolutions. TIFF is the highest resolution, but takes awhile to download.

[MAS]

Hello Robert, et al - Some questions on Kronstadt please.

1) From the AGN screenshot, it appears there is a fortification unit there. Since the land access has impassable beach hexsides, it would seem the only purpose of fortifying Kronstadt is to repel amphibious assault, or are there other benefits such as making it more resistant to port damage from bombing?

2) Do the Germans have an amphibious capability in the Baltic? (They should as evidenced by their successful assaults against defended beaches on Saaremaa and Muhu Islands in Sept/Oct '41, operations Beowulf II and Siegfried).

3) If they do, how would that potentially interact with the Baltic Fleet? How does naval gunfire support work in WITE2?

4) Does Kronstadt have any Naval Gun batteries intrinsically attached, such as AA and engineers can be attached?

5) Any other information re: Naval Transport / Amphibious abilities vs. defense systems would be appreciated, such as defensive minefields, small craft, submarines, etc. I know it is abstracted, would just like to know how it works in the game.

Thanks much!

[MAS]

thank you!

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: MAS

Hello Robert, et al - Some questions on Kronstadt please.

1) From the AGN screenshot, it appears there is a fortification unit there. Since the land access has impassable beach hexsides, it would seem the only purpose of fortifying Kronstadt is to repel amphibious assault, or are there other benefits such as making it more resistant to port damage from bombing?

2) Do the Germans have an amphibious capability in the Baltic? (They should as evidenced by their successful assaults against defended beaches on Saaremaa and Muhu Islands in Sept/Oct '41, operations Beowulf II and Siegfried).

3) If they do, how would that potentially interact with the Baltic Fleet? How does naval gunfire support work in WITE2?

4) Does Kronstadt have any Naval Gun batteries intrinsically attached, such as AA and engineers can be attached?

5) Any other information re: Naval Transport / Amphibious abilities vs. defense systems would be appreciated, such as defensive minefields, small craft, submarines, etc. I know it is abstracted, would just like to know how it works in the game.

Thanks much!

1 - A lot of work has gone into the OOBs, the game may actually be worth buying as a near definitive pulling together of the current research into the historical OOBs on the key dates. Which is a long way of saying, there are some things in the game that exist simply because they were there historically

2 - not ampbib as such, but they can invade the Baltic islands

3 - The Soviets have a TF similar to WiTW in the Black Sea but its not got the gunnery or overall power of the Western Allies. But they have some capacity for naval invasions as a result.

4 - the OOB around the various Soviet naval forts is being reworked but yes, the FZ has attached AA etc which all adds into the challenge of attacking Leningrad

5 - both sides can do naval transport in the various sea areas (incl the Soviets on Ladoga and the Caspian). Ports auto-generate naval interdiction and that picks up all the small crafts, minefields etc. For the most part, both sides then use naval air missions to either close down or keep a port open. So really the variable is the naval air commitment (both the specialist planes and any others you commit to the task)

[MAS]

Nice to hear about the near definitive OOB! I really appreciate all the hard work the developers have put into this. Even better to hear about continuing OOB work such as the naval forts. Don't forget about the 4 twin 305mm turrets at Sevastopol! [:)]

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: MAS

thank you!

Your welcome. All simulations are only as good as the data they contain, and where there is conflicting data, you have to make a choice as to which to use. Your example for the TOE of 1st Panzer, the game uses askey data, rather than German production and in service numbers, compare Askey number of trucks in the pool, c170k at game start, which is usually reported as 60k tons of Grosstruppen capacity, so Askey data is around thrice that of Wagners, with German production numbers of all trucks, (USSBR Motor vechicles industrial report)and you see Askey gives the Heer more trucks to move supplies than Germany has built, ( more than all of Europe had built)let alone put into military units or into civilian or state economy.

Upthread you can see Panzer Groups with c40 mps which gave them 10 hexes of manouver on average, (look at a Div after it moves its full turn, it has moved all its fuel munitions etc forward on its own, combat units with a combat load moved c a third of that on their own, the rest on Div asset, it has also sent each day for replacement of wanted items in the last 24 hours, so 7 round trips from the nearest supply source, does it look right to you or not?, we will all have in our minds an idea of what is probable)

In game the difference on which data is preferred is that Germany has greater forward lift capacity with Askey numbers over German in service numbers, so it’s pace of operations is faster and reaches further.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

https://www.loc.gov/item/map51000141/


You can download it in different resolutions. TIFF is the highest resolution, but takes awhile to download.

Thanks for the link. Amazing material. The maps stop December 1941. Do you know if the second volume is available as well?

[Light4bettor]

Hi Bozo,

You might not read all this but I'll put this caveat out there for others.
Honestly I'm trying to find out the background of this volume.
I can speculate though with a some degree of certainty (based on my limited military/life experience):

1) Divisional protocol would be that individual divisions would be required to report their location and status to Korps headquarters at a certain time every evening no matter what they were doing (lets say 2000 hours or 8 pm).

2) Korps HQs would then send this info up to Armee HQ level, Armee HQ would combine all their Korp reports which would go to Armee Group HQ level, then those Armee Gruppe reports would be sent to OKH HQ- where a couple of Junior officers under a Captain would combine all the info and then mark all the units on the Big map that evening/ early morning.

Purpose A: to have a big map somewhat current for the whole front for the General Staff/ Hitler
Purpose B: military study/ posterity: in the beginning of Barbarossa most are expecting an easy victory, so lets make something for posterity so we can relive our victorious campaign with our fellow veterans and grandchildren, and have guide for training schools.

You'll notice in September-Oct-Nov (right when most realize they've just been married to a war that has no easy end in sight, you'll notice the start of missed days that are not recorded on the maps).

So, short answer-- no incentive to record the horror/embarrassment of what happened in Dec/Jan (at least in terms of a publishable volume), and with the war's conclusion looking uncertain, there is no incentive to continue making a second volume.

By the way, if you look at 45 ID in the first week, its not made clear that they are investing Brest Litovsk (it shows them there but no indication of enemy forces, unless the way its circle is drawn means that..),
and 8th Panzer divisions being cut-off at Stoltsy in mid-july for a few days is not made clear either on that map (just for a couple of small examples). There seems (and again I'm just speculating) to be a propensity to downplay setbacks on that map.
On the other hand, the Yelnya salient battles, the Russian assaults on it, and the German's eventual withdrawal from it is made fairly clear.

and their listings of Red Army units on the map is only their best guesses based on intel/air recon/ interrogations.
Just saying don't rely on it for absolute accuracy in certain instances, but yeah its invaluable.

Just looking at June 21 evening report, you can see the actual location of everything on the evening of the invasion. which is fascinating in itself.

Side note: I'm guessing those Junior OKH officers who were marking the maps every evening-- were called to the front during the Winter emergency. (last map is Dec 6 right).

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor
I can speculate though with a some degree of certainty (based on my limited military/life experience):

These maps are based on the daily situation maps prepared for high command / Hitler. The below link contains a good description of these maps:
http://downloads.sturmpanzer.com/Guides ... heater.PDF

Years ago a lot of these maps (very comprehensive for 1941, partially comprehensive for 1942 in centre and north) were available on a website called wwii-photo-maps (via a link to an FTP server). While that is no longer openly accessible anymore, it seems you can still get access by mailing the guy who is maintaining it(he seems to have Russian maps as well):

http://wwii-microfilm.blogspot.com/

[Light4bettor]

Thank you!

[Light4bettor]

Of course its not definitive, but I like to use the map in conjunction with other primary sources like Halder's war diary. the first picture is situation AGS evening 11 Jul. The second picture is an excerpt from Halder's diary of 12 Jul.

[Light4bettor]

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