Empire of the Sun - DesertWolf101 (J) vs Andy Mac (A)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


...Do squads/devices actually consume supply when they upgrade? That would be a very useful thing to conclusively find out. Undoubtedly a question that Alfred knows the answer to if he could chime in!

Yes.

There should be older posts of mine that expand on the details.

Alfred

They do, based upon LC if my memory serves me ...

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Alfred

A unit can expend up to 10 shots in combat. Each shot raises the supply required by 10%. Hence if all 10 shots are expended the total supply requirement figure is doubled. Most combat doesn't result in all 10 shots being expended.

The only way to attempt to reduce a unit's supply consumption from combat is to have it in "reserve" mode, and hope it isn't automatically moved out of "reserve" status.

Alfred

Alfred,

Just to clarify; the supply consumption is based upon the device LC, correct?

No.

In a LCU which is "resting", each device has a need for 1 supply point, irrespective of firepower or load cost. The aggregated supply points represent the monthly consumption rate if it does nothing.

If the LCU sees combat, it can be involved in up to 10 shots. Each shot increases the anticipated unit aggregated supply requirement by 10%. Again no individual device tracking hence firepower or load cost is not taken into account. As combat subsides the shot count is reduced and the unit supply requirement returns to the pre combat level (assuming same number of devices aw before etc).

For the application of the shot concept, see this thread from June 2010

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... t&#2488984

and of the various post from BigJ62 made in the thread, post #18 in particular quantifies the shot increasing supply needs by 10%.

In case you are wondering, there is no public dev comment which expands on what exactly constitutes a shot. From various other public dev comments made independently on combat (meaning not directly on what is a "shot"), it is clear to me that a shot does not require every device in the LCU participating in combat. You should assume that a LCU conducting a "Bombardment" Attack only will probably use up fewer "shots" than if it engaged in a "Deliberate" Attack.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


...Do squads/devices actually consume supply when they upgrade? That would be a very useful thing to conclusively find out. Undoubtedly a question that Alfred knows the answer to if he could chime in!

Yes.

There should be older posts of mine that expand on the details.

Alfred

They do, based upon LC if my memory serves me ...

Correct.

For LCU devices, the purchase cost in supply points is the load cost. Again differences in firepower are not the basis for the determination.

Alfred

[DesertWolf101]

November 27, 1942

A good day on the Russian front.

The situation in Ulan Bator is developing in my favor as my flanking forces gain all hex sides around the city bar one. The right flank was secured today when Japanese infantry divisions sent the Soviet forces there reeling back. It looks like Andy has already pulled out his artillery train from the city but he still has considerable forces at the base. I can't imagine he would seek to keep holding on to Ulan Bator given his current position but he may still surprise me yet.

[DesertWolf101]

The Battle for the flank

[DesertWolf101]

Andy decided to fully commit his Soviet Air Force to protect his troops in the Ulan Bator sector. Unfortunately for him, he met the elite and paid the price. Unfortunately for me, I lost two of my pilots, both aces.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
The situation in Ulan Bator is developing in my favor as my flanking forces gain all hex sides around the city bar one.

Just a note that you gained hexes not hex sides, which in itself does not restrict movement out of UB hex. Hex sides in the UB hex are still green, and will turn red only when you cross them

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
The situation in Ulan Bator is developing in my favor as my flanking forces gain all hex sides around the city bar one.

Just a note that you gained hexes not hex sides, which in itself does not restrict movement out of UB hex. Hex sides in the UB hex are still green, and will turn red only when you cross them

Yes, thank you for catching that, hexes is what I meant to say. Although I expect the hex sides will shortly be under Japanese control soon as well.

[Lowpe]

I have fought in India, but not as far as you are now....this is an odd game, so for what it is worth:

Allied troops move very fast...

Allied troops have interior lines and easy resupply...

Allied troops start getting better TOE? Allied armor is very problematic. Very difficult to make offensive moves, especially if you have lost the air war, which makes retreat thru clear terrain very ugly. Watch those Allied air bases.

There is a lot of supply generation that makes taking risks here very worthwhile, but losing troops can easily snowball on you.

You are a good player, just don't let the Allies pick your retreat paths and pay attention to the front, keep your recon up, then you should not be surprised and manage a fighting withdraw...but keep track of Allied naval strength and once a flanking invasion becomes possible you must answer it...it maybe that Allied attention is more focused on other areas and they are willing to cede India for quite a long time.

On the other hand if he is focused on pushing forward, a slow gradual retreat might keep him occupied and away from a flanking invasion...and you have land to cede him slowly without jeopardizing much.

Still, it is not too early to build the Bangkok forts, Tavoy line, and even the Vinh line.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

Kido Butai Operational Results

The KB has wrapped up its port strike operation in Australia, this is the estimated damage inflicted on my opponent in terms of sunk ships:

1 CA
1 CL
1 DD
1 CM
2 PG
2 AM

2 AO
14 TK
1 AMC
19 AP
76 AK
29 AKL

I would qualify this as a good result for the investment allocated. Is this better than a strike on Pearl Harbor? I would say that depends heavily on your particular goals and approach. Given my particular strategy going into the game, I think this operation was a success.

I was reviewing your early war activities. Like I said a couple days ago, that move to strike Australia’s harbours was interesting, but while reading it at first, I was wondering about your fuel levels for KB. Reading it again, I see you did moves at flank speed, which would expend even more fuel. Where did you bring your fleet oilers ? The Allies have a couple of cruisers in the vicinity, and while you hit Canberra and Perth, the USS Louisville and Pensacola and not very far, as well as HMNZS Leander and Achilles, and even HMAS Adelaide might present a threat for a bunch of AO with light escort. My first reaction upon seeing a KB strike on Sydney December 7th, would be « where are the oilers » and send a couple of surface forces to look for them...

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have fought in India, but not as far as you are now....this is an odd game, so for what it is worth:

Allied troops move very fast...

Allied troops have interior lines and easy resupply...

Allied troops start getting better TOE? Allied armor is very problematic. Very difficult to make offensive moves, especially if you have lost the air war, which makes retreat thru clear terrain very ugly. Watch those Allied air bases.

There is a lot of supply generation that makes taking risks here very worthwhile, but losing troops can easily snowball on you.

You are a good player, just don't let the Allies pick your retreat paths and pay attention to the front, keep your recon up, then you should not be surprised and manage a fighting withdraw...but keep track of Allied naval strength and once a flanking invasion becomes possible you must answer it...it maybe that Allied attention is more focused on other areas and they are willing to cede India for quite a long time.

On the other hand if he is focused on pushing forward, a slow gradual retreat might keep him occupied and away from a flanking invasion...and you have land to cede him slowly without jeopardizing much.

Still, it is not too early to build the Bangkok forts, Tavoy line, and even the Vinh line.

Thanks for these suggestions/comments Lowpe, I find them quite helpful. Given the Allied advantages that you are detailing, it seems to me that I must ensure I do not get caught off guard and to be able to retreat before it is too late. I will see how long I can maintain air superiority over the front and dominance at sea and that will influence my decision. Will definitely keep a very close eye on his movements as that's critical.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

Kido Butai Operational Results

The KB has wrapped up its port strike operation in Australia, this is the estimated damage inflicted on my opponent in terms of sunk ships:

1 CA
1 CL
1 DD
1 CM
2 PG
2 AM

2 AO
14 TK
1 AMC
19 AP
76 AK
29 AKL

I would qualify this as a good result for the investment allocated. Is this better than a strike on Pearl Harbor? I would say that depends heavily on your particular goals and approach. Given my particular strategy going into the game, I think this operation was a success.

I was reviewing your early war activities. Like I said a couple days ago, that move to strike Australia’s harbours was interesting, but while reading it at first, I was wondering about your fuel levels for KB. Reading it again, I see you did moves at flank speed, which would expend even more fuel. Where did you bring your fleet oilers ? The Allies have a couple of cruisers in the vicinity, and while you hit Canberra and Perth, the USS Louisville and Pensacola and not very far, as well as HMNZS Leander and Achilles, and even HMAS Adelaide might present a threat for a bunch of AO with light escort. My first reaction upon seeing a KB strike on Sydney December 7th, would be « where are the oilers » and send a couple of surface forces to look for them...

Excellent question. The oiler issue was a big concern for me with this operation. I had to both keep a close eye on the KB fuel level and do my best to protect the oilers. In the end I decided to keep them relatively close to the KB to both refuel as quickly and as often as possible and to be better protected by the KB and surface combatant detachments. It was a substantial risk but I also knew air search was not extensive this early in Australia and ultimately I was willing to take on and manage that threat.

I should add - I did have a fallback option if the oilers went up in flames. At no point did the carriers themselves not have enough fuel to make it back to friendly waters. That was the red line in risk management I wasn't willing to cross. That's part of the reason the refueling happened often in this operation because I wanted to keep the fuel levels up to not go below that line.

[DesertWolf101]

Air R&D Update

Factories in the A6M, Tojo, Oscar and Judy lines are fully repaired (as would be expected by this date) and chugging along in their research towards improved variants.

In terms of airframes that are still not in production, I have one George and one J1N1-S Irving currently at 30 and giving me research points.

And here is a table of where the factories that are closest to 30 are. Several more George factories are getting close to 30 and with the engine bonus I expect to potentially have the George as early as Spring 1943. The closest Frank factory is at 26/30 so fingers crossed I get that early too.



Future Models

My assumption right now is that this game might go the distance. I therefore want to look into some models for late/very late war production and my supply is not only holding steady but increasing right now so I feel fairly secure devoting the necessary factories for this. I already have put a healthy amount of factories on the Ki-83 (6), Shinden (5), and Randy (3) from the start of the game. The results are decent with the most advanced factories as follows: the Ki-83 at 12, the Shinden at 14, and the Randy at 13. One way to go forward is to add even more factories to these models, particularly the Ki-83 and Shinden, but I think my preference is to look at even later airframes for research. The question is which models do I go for?

Would love to hear some suggestions and thoughts on this. For instance, anyone tried out jets and rocket powered aircraft? Any underwhelming airframes to stay away from or otherwise brilliant ones that I find myself lucky enough to get in my game?

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

Defending in India

With Andy making full use of the Karachi wormhole, it is really only a matter of time until the Allies assemble a large enough force to try to take back India. The days of the Japanese offensive in the subcontinent are largely over, so I am starting to wrestle with how to defend here or really, if to defend at all.

In any case, at least for the period where I do decide to defend, where should I draw my defensive lines I wonder? When I look at the map of India in the game I see precious few clear defensive lines, even if there are some excellent strongpoint locations like Calcutta. Anyone defend in India before as Japan? Some additional thoughts/perspectives on this would be very welcome.

This is very good advice:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Allied troops move very fast...

Allied troops have interior lines and easy resupply...

Allied troops start getting better TOE? Allied armor is very problematic. Very difficult to make offensive moves, especially if you have lost the air war, which makes retreat thru clear terrain very ugly. Watch those Allied air bases.

Let's assume Andy follows Lowpe's advice and leaves the good defensive terrain alone, forcing you to fight in the open. He could begin by fighting for Indore, and if he takes it, that creates an "open terrain corridor" all the way to Cuttack. But you don't know for sure, since he could move in several other directions. More important, he wants you to think that's the main thrust and move much of your defense there. Among other things, you'll probably want to avoid encirclement and will spread out to defend the river banks - most of which is open terrain - and the bombers will make you pay.

But the real schwerpunkt is the northern blue arrow. A 4E blitz and a multi-division assault will annihilate the defenders in Lucknow, leaving the armor free to roll on down that big open terrain corridor in the north, all the way to Calcutta. There's no good place for the Japanese to make a stand, and once Indore falls, your flanks are threatened everywhere.

Fortunately you've got KB to keep open the lines of sea retreat, but if it's focused on doing that.....

[DesertWolf101]

The map you've posted clearly shows the ways India can be a defensive nightmare for the Japanese player. In addition, there are extensive garrison requirements that tie down forces, the need to guard against the considerable Allied paratrooper threat in bases that don't always have a garrison requirement, and the sheer distances involved which spread the defenses very thin.

Frankly if it wasn't for the industry I have seized I would have likely already withdrawn back to the Burma-India border. I have essentially reached the emergency reinforcements line which I have no intention of crossing, so even the potential of staying and dealing more damage to his pools in local attacks is really no longer there.

[DesertWolf101]

November 28-December2, 1942

The Soviets counterattack one of my flanking forces near Chita - will the Japanese hold?

[DesertWolf101]

The Imperial forces stand their ground!

[DesertWolf101]

Ulan Bator is occupied by Japanese troops as Andy's forces vacate the city. 40,000 supply is captured with the base which will greatly facilitate follow on operations. The Japanese army here will attempt to chase down the fleeing Soviets with the assistance of the IJAAF but I doubt I will catch him. Chita is also abandoned and will be taken next turn.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
The Soviets counterattack one of my flanking forces near Chita - will the Japanese hold?

Wonder that Andy keeps attacking in situations that do not absolutely require it. It was his hex. This is a defensive war for him, he needs to occupy high ground (including flanks of key bases) and wait for you to get a bloody nose against tough terrain. I also get the impression that he neglects defensive fighting outside of bases, specifically positioning units in good terrain behind rivers and entrench.

Strategically it looks like he now has to run for the hills and abandon Ulan-Ude too, cause clear terrain Kyaktah is untenable under your coming air bombing from Ulan-Bator.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
The Soviets counterattack one of my flanking forces near Chita - will the Japanese hold?

Wonder that Andy keeps attacking in situations that do not absolutely require it. It was his hex. This is a defensive war for him, he needs to occupy high ground (including flanks of key bases) and wait for you to get a bloody nose against tough terrain. I also get the impression that he neglects defensive fighting outside of bases, specifically positioning units in good terrain behind rivers and entrench.

Strategically it looks like he now has to run for the hills and abandon Ulan-Ude too, cause clear terrain Kyaktah is untenable under your coming air bombing from Ulan-Bator.

I can't speak for him but I suspect it may be a mixture of frustration and a desire to grab at a chance to give me a bloody nose and keep me from getting too brazen. I mean technically it could have succeeded, I think I got a decent roll there too. You would probably have to ask him in his AAR for a real answer though.

If I was Andy I would probably now head for the mountains around Irkutsk. If he can't stop me in a situation where he had the excellent terrain around Chita and with the disadvantaged Japanese position (logistics/airbases) around Ulan Bator then he should have an even harder time stopping me around Ulan Ude. But from what I have learned in playing him thus far I get the impression he fights hard wherever he can, so I doubt it.