WEGO games, what happened to them?

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

There were good "wego" board war games in the late seventies/early eighties. Wooden Ships and Iron Men, Ironclads, and the WWI air combat game Wings along with the WWII Air Force and Dauntless.

I forgot about Wooden Ships and Iron Men! [X(] I played it to death since I was in Eight Grade (one year before entering high-school). I and my gaming friends played it so much that we began to devise "variants". The most popular one was to join it with "Richtofen War" and having biplanes launching from XVIII Century ships (frigates had one, the Santissima Trinidad sported a whole wing).

(I lost the document with the gaming rules, but devising them was easier that we thought. I guess that I could sit down and reconstruct them even today).

This also reminds me how, in the early '80s, we had both AH Italy and SPI Italy. The former translated the manual and gave you some sheets with the translation of the terms found on the charts (you used it to look up unfamiliar terms); this, however, was only a "supplement" to the original English game. SPI, OTOH, translated everything, thus creating a "Italian version" of the game.

I never knew about SPI, but, years later (last year of high-school actually) I met a guy who had done some work for AH Italy. He told me that it was run by a young wargaming fan (I never knew his name) and had become a successful enterprise. This guy was in talks with AH to start producing games for them here in Italy when he was killed in a motorcycle accident. That's all I know but, if so, it was a damned shame. [:(]

[Zovs]

My first exposure was in 1979 with SPIs simo-move games like Kampfpanzer, Sniper and Mechwar 77. These were the forerunners of today’s WEGO I believe.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
... But, under WEGO, each fleet obeys its orders and sails right into the teeth of that death trap one after the other - an ambush turns into total annihilation.

Was sitting this one out but someone has to say it. Sorry to say, if you think that's what an WEGO game is, then you have no idea what it is. This concept of units blindly following orders just because is not what WEGO is all about, if it was then it would be dead, yet, it's not and there's a reason for it. WEGO is not for all games, nor all scales, neither it's better or worse than IGOUGO in certain situations, but there's clearly a place for it, there's a reason it's used, there is a way in which it's used and it's not units blindly moving around. To anyone reading this, please try a WEGO game, heck, go for the old W@W / V4V if you must, don't be put off by these inaccuracies and misinterpretations of what WEGO games are or how they operate.

Actually happened to me with Pacific War!

[MrRoadrunner]

We've shared similar experiences? [:)]
I made up two more countries for AH's Blitzkrieg and devised rules to supplement the originals. But, you took it a step further combining air and sea? [:D]

I also used my "unneeded" Squad Leader boards as the maps for the WWI "Wings" game. They added flavor and I did not want to throw them out. Hours of pleasure when we had up to eight players who handled three planes each.
Some had "missions". In one, I had a two seater that could not use it's rear weapon until it landed near a bar and picked up his 'brother' behind enemy lines.

Gosh, those were the good old days!

RR

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Mobeer

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Mobeer

The disadvantage of IGOUGO is that the light brigade is probably split into many squadrons\troops. When the first troop gets moved and destroyed the player then moves the rest of the brigade differently, whereas in WEGO all the units of the brigade move together.

More generally, WEGO means the player cannot use information gained within a turn to guide the movements of other units in the same turn. IGOUGO allows a player to move one unit through the time period of a turn, then give orders to the next unit at the start of that turn's time period with knowledge gained during the period.

The disadvantage of WEGO is that NOBODY gets to make use of info gained - even units that realistically could have done so.

So...you order your merchant fleets to sail through a supposedly quiet sector of the seas. What you didn't count on was that the enemy was poaching on that sector with his carriers! Boom! One fleet gets mauled by the carriers. Realistically, that ought to be the end of it - everybody else would turn around. But, under WEGO, each fleet obeys its orders and sails right into the teeth of that death trap one after the other - an ambush turns into total annihilation.

It really depends on the timescales. Use 1 turn = 1 day with a 60 mile hex and it is reasonable that two convoys saling in the same hex in the same turn can both be sunk by a carrier group, whereas another convoy 4 hexes away (240 miles) has a chance to escape the following day when new orders can be given. In this case WEGO fits better.
... (and this is why I think eveyone plays War in the Pacific using 1 day turns)

Change the scales to 1 month turns and big chunks of ocean and then it makes more sense that a second convoy should be able to react to the first one being sunk, hence IGOUGO is better.

That convoy 4 hexes away can still get there if it's doing 10 knots or more, even at that time scale. Why would any convoy continue to sail into that maw, once it was clear what was going on?

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Curtis I could say lets take a WW1 flight combat game. In real life everything is happening all at the same time, a plane doesn't move first so the plane following knows exactly which way he is going to turn etc. How would the plane being followed ever shake his follower off if the follower knows which way he is going to go first.

As I said I think WEGO shines at the tactical scale. Things are happening all at the same time very quickly. Unlike say the strategic scale where time scales fit OK with IGOUGO.

Also talking of naval warfare check Steam and Iron. This uses a kind of WEGO system and it works fantastically with no ramming etc. Oh that's another thing with WEGO it needs to be pretty short turn length and not run that long that it effects decision making. It needs to run at a length of time that ends up not effecting the gameplay. CM games running for 1 minute is great. Flashpoint Campaigns have a excellent system that fits into the era superbly.

Given a short enough time scale, IGOYGO would work fine as well. I would say that the more tactical the scale gets the less room there is for brainlessness. Imagine a WEGO flight simulator!

Another reason I find WEGO more of an obvious chose is that real life doesn't run IGOUGO it runs simultaneously i.e more WEGO like.

As I've said, they don't move brainlessly either. Why anyone wants their units to move around mindlessly is a mystery to me. That's the other issue I have with WEGO: It's Wargaming Light. Basically, you're handing over control of your forces to something like the PO for most of the details. (No wonder the PO works better under WEGO - not because the PO is better, but because the human has been handcuffed).

Simultaneousness is overrated as an aspect of warfare, in my opinion. Most forces are not moving constantly. There is inertia involved as the last action has to be evaluated, higher commands consulted, plans made, and orders distributed. Men have to rest, sleep, eat, etc. Plenty of slack for one side to act and the other to then react.

I'm not a WEGO priest what ever that maybe I just find I've had some real nail-biting times playing games using WEGO that wouldn't have been intense etc if they had been IGOUGO. I would love there to be a tactical wargame that you can play IGOUGO or WEGO and that way I could really evaluate the mechanics.

That was my original point. Where are the test results that the opinion of WEGO is based upon?

[MrsWargamer]

One of the best simulations of warfare ever for me is oddly enough the card game type game Up Front.

It plays like Poker to a point. You can't tell what the terrain will look like. you can't really know if your squad will move or not, or fire or not.

The gameplay is sort of turn-like, but the turn can result in all sorts of random reactions.

Do you hold onto that Fire card on the premise you just haaaave to get a move card that allows you to get into the good terrain card that allows you to then bring fire onto the opposing unit? And then, you might get the move card, and the other player plays something on it that ruins your plan. Or you finally fire, only to have the target refuse to go down.

Of all my board game wargames, it is perhaps the one with the most wear (other than Squad Leader), and the one I have played against the most varied types of person (I've even gotten non-wargamers to play it).

[Zovs]

Up Front was and still is the best tactical card game around, per all the points you made and more.

[altipueri]

Quiz: Is Montgomery playing: WEGO, IGOUGO, RTS, Command Ops (with the pause button disabled)

From Winston Churchill's "The Second World War". Chapter XXIV "Crossing the Rhine"

At 8 p.m. we repaired to the map wagon, and I now had an excellent opportunity of seeing Montgomery's methods of conducting a battle on this gigantic scale. For nearly two hours a succession of young officers, of about the rank of major, presented themselves. Each had come back from a different sector of the front. They were the direct personal representatives of the Commander-in-Chief, and could go anywhere and see anything and ask any questions they liked of any commander. As in turn they made their reports and were searchingly questioned by their chief the whole story of the day's battle was unfolded. This gave Monty a complete account of what had happened by highly competent men whom he knew well and whose eyes he trusted. It afforded an invaluable cross-check to the reports from all the various headquarters and from the commanders, all of which had already been sifted and weighed by General de Guingard, his Chief of Staff, and were known to Montgomery. By this process he was able to form a more vivid, direct and sometimes more accurate picture. The officers ran great risks, and of the seven or eight to whom I listened on this and succeeding nights two were killed in the next few weeks. I thought the system admirable, and indeed the only way in which a modern Commander-in-Chief could see as well as read what was going on in every part of the front. This process having finished, Montgomery gave a series of directions to de Guingand, which were turned into immediate action by the Staff machine. And so to bed.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Quiz: Is Montgomery playing: WEGO, IGOUGO, RTS, Command Ops (with the pause button disabled)

From Winston Churchill's "The Second World War". Chapter XXIV "Crossing the Rhine"

At 8 p.m. we repaired to the map wagon, and I now had an excellent opportunity of seeing Montgomery's methods of conducting a battle on this gigantic scale. For nearly two hours a succession of young officers, of about the rank of major, presented themselves. Each had come back from a different sector of the front. They were the direct personal representatives of the Commander-in-Chief, and could go anywhere and see anything and ask any questions they liked of any commander. As in turn they made their reports and were searchingly questioned by their chief the whole story of the day's battle was unfolded. This gave Monty a complete account of what had happened by highly competent men whom he knew well and whose eyes he trusted. It afforded an invaluable cross-check to the reports from all the various headquarters and from the commanders, all of which had already been sifted and weighed by General de Guingard, his Chief of Staff, and were known to Montgomery. By this process he was able to form a more vivid, direct and sometimes more accurate picture. The officers ran great risks, and of the seven or eight to whom I listened on this and succeeding nights two were killed in the next few weeks. I thought the system admirable, and indeed the only way in which a modern Commander-in-Chief could see as well as read what was going on in every part of the front. This process having finished, Montgomery gave a series of directions to de Guingand, which were turned into immediate action by the Staff machine. And so to bed.

And meanwhile Patton has already secured the objective...

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Quiz: Is Montgomery playing: WEGO, IGOUGO, RTS, Command Ops (with the pause button disabled)

From Winston Churchill's "The Second World War". Chapter XXIV "Crossing the Rhine"

At 8 p.m. we repaired to the map wagon, and I now had an excellent opportunity of seeing Montgomery's methods of conducting a battle on this gigantic scale. For nearly two hours a succession of young officers, of about the rank of major, presented themselves. Each had come back from a different sector of the front. They were the direct personal representatives of the Commander-in-Chief, and could go anywhere and see anything and ask any questions they liked of any commander. As in turn they made their reports and were searchingly questioned by their chief the whole story of the day's battle was unfolded. This gave Monty a complete account of what had happened by highly competent men whom he knew well and whose eyes he trusted. It afforded an invaluable cross-check to the reports from all the various headquarters and from the commanders, all of which had already been sifted and weighed by General de Guingard, his Chief of Staff, and were known to Montgomery. By this process he was able to form a more vivid, direct and sometimes more accurate picture. The officers ran great risks, and of the seven or eight to whom I listened on this and succeeding nights two were killed in the next few weeks. I thought the system admirable, and indeed the only way in which a modern Commander-in-Chief could see as well as read what was going on in every part of the front. This process having finished, Montgomery gave a series of directions to de Guingand, which were turned into immediate action by the Staff machine. And so to bed.

And meanwhile Patton has already secured the objective...

A SLAP-DASH action, no doubts [;)]

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Quiz: Is Montgomery playing: WEGO, IGOUGO, RTS, Command Ops (with the pause button disabled)

From Winston Churchill's "The Second World War". Chapter XXIV "Crossing the Rhine"

At 8 p.m. we repaired to the map wagon, and I now had an excellent opportunity of seeing Montgomery's methods of conducting a battle on this gigantic scale. For nearly two hours a succession of young officers, of about the rank of major, presented themselves. Each had come back from a different sector of the front. They were the direct personal representatives of the Commander-in-Chief, and could go anywhere and see anything and ask any questions they liked of any commander. As in turn they made their reports and were searchingly questioned by their chief the whole story of the day's battle was unfolded. This gave Monty a complete account of what had happened by highly competent men whom he knew well and whose eyes he trusted. It afforded an invaluable cross-check to the reports from all the various headquarters and from the commanders, all of which had already been sifted and weighed by General de Guingard, his Chief of Staff, and were known to Montgomery. By this process he was able to form a more vivid, direct and sometimes more accurate picture. The officers ran great risks, and of the seven or eight to whom I listened on this and succeeding nights two were killed in the next few weeks. I thought the system admirable, and indeed the only way in which a modern Commander-in-Chief could see as well as read what was going on in every part of the front. This process having finished, Montgomery gave a series of directions to de Guingand, which were turned into immediate action by the Staff machine. And so to bed.

And he still dropped 1st Airborne on top of the II SS Panzer Corps!

[altipueri]

Ok, what about Fontenoy where the English invited the French to fire first ?

Sir Charles Hay said “Messieurs les Gardes Francaises, s’il vous plait tirez le premier.”


https://www.britishbattles.com/king-geo ... enoy-1745/

[vaalen]

The AGEOD games,sold by Matrix, all use a WEGO system. They cover a variety of periods, from ancient times to the Spanish Civil war. They are wargames, without a doubt.

All these games use the same basic system, though it is modified to suit the subject of the game, and the more recent games have had more elements added to it.

There is a learning curve, but once you learn the system, it is very easy to use. And it has the best WEGO operational and strategic game play I have ever experienced.

A more recent AGEOD game is Fields of Glory, Empires. This game is not strictly military, as it has a lot of empire building aspects, but the military part of the game is WEGO, and is superb. This is one of my favorite games of all time.

[gamer78]

Thanks Vaalen for reminding Ageod. Philippe T.(not the coder one) once interested Turkish militia in 'independence War' in 1919-23. Good games for Matrix if any history interest.

[vaalen]

My pleasure, Philippe.

I would say that I have had more enjoyment and immersion in playing these games than any others.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: wodin

Curtis I could say lets take a WW1 flight combat game. In real life everything is happening all at the same time, a plane doesn't move first so the plane following knows exactly which way he is going to turn etc. How would the plane being followed ever shake his follower off if the follower knows which way he is going to go first.

As I said I think WEGO shines at the tactical scale. Things are happening all at the same time very quickly. Unlike say the strategic scale where time scales fit OK with IGOUGO.

Also talking of naval warfare check Steam and Iron. This uses a kind of WEGO system and it works fantastically with no ramming etc. Oh that's another thing with WEGO it needs to be pretty short turn length and not run that long that it effects decision making. It needs to run at a length of time that ends up not effecting the gameplay. CM games running for 1 minute is great. Flashpoint Campaigns have a excellent system that fits into the era superbly.

Given a short enough time scale, IGOYGO would work fine as well. I would say that the more tactical the scale gets the less room there is for brainlessness. Imagine a WEGO flight simulator!

Another reason I find WEGO more of an obvious chose is that real life doesn't run IGOUGO it runs simultaneously i.e more WEGO like.

As I've said, they don't move brainlessly either. Why anyone wants their units to move around mindlessly is a mystery to me. That's the other issue I have with WEGO: It's Wargaming Light. Basically, you're handing over control of your forces to something like the PO for most of the details. (No wonder the PO works better under WEGO - not because the PO is better, but because the human has been handcuffed).

Simultaneousness is overrated as an aspect of warfare, in my opinion. Most forces are not moving constantly. There is inertia involved as the last action has to be evaluated, higher commands consulted, plans made, and orders distributed. Men have to rest, sleep, eat, etc. Plenty of slack for one side to act and the other to then react.

I'm not a WEGO priest what ever that maybe I just find I've had some real nail-biting times playing games using WEGO that wouldn't have been intense etc if they had been IGOUGO. I would love there to be a tactical wargame that you can play IGOUGO or WEGO and that way I could really evaluate the mechanics.

That was my original point. Where are the test results that the opinion of WEGO is based upon?

I enjoy both. Though would like to see more tactical wego games. As for results...it's solely based on how I feel, just like IGOUGO is for you. Also IGOUGO wasn't a mechanic designed for it's representation of realism but because of the restrictions of the boardgame format.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: wodin

As for results...it's solely based on how I feel, just like IGOUGO is for you.

My opinion is not based upon "feelings", but results:

[Curtis Lemay]

More:

[MrsWargamer]

You can please some of the people some of the time, you can please most of the people most of the time. But you can't please all of the people all of the time.

To try to do so is folly.

It's why I am the way I am. I am NOT interested in pleasing all of the people all of the time. I don't care about the people who refuse to be pleased. They don't want to be pleased. It's their choice to not be pleased. They can have that choice to not be pleased.

And life will go on. And some of the people will be pleased most of the time, and most of the people will be pleased most of the time, but you will never make a wargame that everyone will be pleased with.

And you will sleep better having not worried about it.