Air target engagement using primary weapon

[exsonic01]

This has been discussed before. But I still think there should be a good way to control air target engaging for tanks and vehicles. Can we add something like "air target engagement" in SOP, to regulate or prohibit the engaging against air targets?
We can give 3 options: do not engage air target, engage air target but in limited chance or limited ammo, and engage air target with same intensity with current model.

Or, is this possible for tanks to have less priority to air targets?


During the middle of important engagement, my T80s engage against the target something far behind the major enemy zone.


Same thing happens repeatedly.


They were shooting at helicopter about a kilometer behind the current fighting zone.

Though I almost completely wiped out Capitalist Germans on the highway, in front of those assaulting T80s, there are still several Leo2A4 tanks and IFVs survived, hiding behind those smoke and wrecks. I wish to make my tanks do not engage against helicopter, rather observe and concentrate to front (including gunner).

Also, engaging against air target too frequently would results the less "reactive" tanks. Frequent air target engaging bring continuous reloading. What if my tanks meet enemy tanks while reloading after shot against helicopter?

Plus, this would save some ammo. I mean, tanks shooting their gun-launching missile, HEAT and everything they have to the air target. Air targets are usually very far, and helicopters can eat up all tank ammo in their mouth.

I know gunships are very deadly against tanks, so I'm still agree that tanks and IFVs should be able to target helicopters. But I wish if there are some ways to regulate or prohibit this behavior in SOP, so that I can control my units to engage against air units or ground units in better way.

[Veitikka]

Personally I've always thought that since air targets usually have a high threat value and they move fast or can disappear behind terrain features quickly, they should be engaged immediately with all weapons, so there's no need to have a SOP option for it. Of course, there's a big difference between a scout helicopter and Apache. I think whenever you see an Apache you want even your tanks to engage it?

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
Personally I've always thought that since air targets usually have a high threat value and they move fast or can disappear behind terrain features quickly, they should be engaged immediately with all weapons, so there's no need to have a SOP option for it. Of course, there's a big difference between a scout helicopter and Apache. I think whenever you see an Apache you want even your tanks to engage it?

Nope. This really depends on the situation and distance from target.

In that situation of screenshot, if I were tank platoon or company commander, I would command my boys to concentrate on front, preparing for ambush, slowly push forward, and engage enemy TANKS when they are in sight. Here are reasons:

1) My recons are dead, I have no clear info of whereabouts and numbers of Leo2s. I have no direct LoS on hiding Leo2s. Because Leopard2A4 is really good tank, it can toast any T80s within very short period of time. I would rather concentrate to find the imminent threat first, then deal with others next, one at a time.

2) My ambush plan was success, and my tanks are within 1km against FRG Leo2s. I have much better chance to hit Leo2s than helicopters far behind, and this is really a good chance to wipe them out. I don't want my boys to waste reloading time against helicopters, and I want my boys to all eye on the highway to find hiding tanks, because I want to clear the Germans from highway.

3) I have Tungu and Tor, 8 vehicles (= 4 squads) for each of them. I nicely dispersed them and keep good distance (not that far and not that long) from my tanks. Clearly my tanks are too far away from helicopters to do meaningful works. That helicopter was not gunship, but a recon one, but still I need to regard them as dangerous. But, because of the reasons I wrote above, I just can't let tanks to shoot to helicopters. So, for this situation, it is better to let AAs take care of helicopters and let tanks do their job.



Likewise, everything is situational, and this decision really depends on distance. If helicopter is too far, engaging against it is not tactically sound. Sometimes concealment is very important, and open fire from too far is just nothing but advertise my position very loudly to my opponent. Real world is not something like BF series. I also can kill helicopters and I killed gunships in SB Pro, much realistic simulator then any BF series. But again, this really depends on distance.

If I were real tank commander and if I see Apache in far distance (2000m+), I would not engage against them to advertise my position to enemy and waste my boys ammo. Rather, I would command them to deploy smoke and retreat, or reverse, or fast move and hide to nearest cover, and concentrate and engage against ground target within effective range, where my boys can hit with much better chance. And I will directly contact HQ to report Apache and ask HQ to grill AA operators to do their job, and ask him to request artillery smoke field to cover my boys during retreat or push forward. Apaches use near IR beams, which would be a slightly influenced by WP smokes. If all of my AAs are dead then I would consider to engage Apache, but this is not simple decision to make, especially if there are dangerous targets like Leo2s are on the field.

If my contact distance is close (1000m-) then I would fire against Apache with all I have. If I have affluent ground targets, I would call one or two tanks or IFVs to engage helicopter, while all others engage against ground targets. But if I have no ground target then I can concentrate on Apache.

That is why I suggested SOP to control engagement distance or aggressiveness towards air target for tanks and IFVs, at least give commanders a chance to choice what they want to do. Because everything is very situational and so many things, like distance and number/threat level of ground targets, should be also considered to command to engage air targets or not.

In fact, I should have detected helicopters from radar AAs or my recons before I push my tanks. But in this game, my AAs were too bad ad shoot down helicopeters (so many missed missile against helicopters. Is this intended?), and recons found helicopter too late. Thats why tanks were exposed to helicopters in this game. But, engagement against helicopter is very situational and needs some other things to consider.

[zacklaws]

I find it very infuriating to see tanks firing round after round at helicopters with no effect. I can never recall seeing a helicopter destroyed by a tank using its main armament, maybe once and that is it.. Many a time though, before I have noticed it happening as I am preoccupied elsewhere, the tanks are close to depleting all there ammunition or already have done so. Also when I get the chance to stop them, by time the command delay has kicked in, they have fired a load more rounds. Usually, I will give them a Hold fire command, but if there is other enemy ground targets that are a threat, then quickly, I will draw up a maximum range circle that is just short of the helicopter, but once again, you have to wait for the command delay to take effect before they switch tgt.

My main workaround to prevent it now as it winds me up so much, is to not allow the enemy to have helicopters.

But, reading up on it a little while ago, it is a valid tactic for such activity to take place. I also see that the US has a round in M1's which can be used for such a purpose. Basically its the HEAT round updated, designated M830A1 with a proximity fuze so it is just like AA fire.

In reality though, I do not think a helicopter pilot would hang around for long like they do in AB if a few rounds from the main armament of an MBT came whistling past them, they would soon get behind cover or leave the battlefield. I know how much they despise being close to artillery or mortar rounds in the air and they will avoid at all costs as just a hit would be catastrophic.

In the SOP's it would help if there was a TGT engagement matrix as in real life, were different units are given what their priority tgts are rather than free to fire at anything. ie, "Command", "MBT", "ATGW", "APC", "Support" "Helicopters" Etc.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: zacklaws

I find it very infuriating to see tanks firing round after round at helicopters with no effect. I can never recall seeing a helicopter destroyed by a tank using its main armament, maybe once and that is it.. Many a time though, before I have noticed it happening as I am preoccupied elsewhere, the tanks are close to depleting all there ammunition or already have done so. Also when I get the chance to stop them, by time the command delay has kicked in, they have fired a load more rounds. Usually, I will give them a Hold fire command, but if there is other enemy ground targets that are a threat, then quickly, I will draw up a maximum range circle that is just short of the helicopter, but once again, you have to wait for the command delay to take effect before they switch tgt.

My main workaround to prevent it now as it winds me up so much, is to not allow the enemy to have helicopters.

But, reading up on it a little while ago, it is a valid tactic for such activity to take place. I also see that the US has a round in M1's which can be used for such a purpose. Basically its the HEAT round updated, designated M830A1 with a proximity fuze so it is just like AA fire.

In reality though, I do not think a helicopter pilot would hang around for long like they do in AB if a few rounds from the main armament of an MBT came whistling past them, they would soon get behind cover or leave the battlefield. I know how much they despise being close to artillery or mortar rounds in the air and they will avoid at all costs as just a hit would be catastrophic.

In the SOP's it would help if there was a TGT engagement matrix as in real life, were different units are given what their priority tgts are rather than free to fire at anything. ie, "Command", "MBT", "ATGW", "APC", "Support" "Helicopters" Etc.

Thanks to share your experience, I better use maximum range circle to prevent such thing later.

I also think tanks and IFVs should engage against the helicopter, but I also think this is situational. If my tanks are in the middle of battle against T80Us or Leo2s when gunship appears, I wouldn't tell all of my tanks to give up to engage enemy tanks and engage gunships. Rather, I would just call AA and call several vehicles to engage gunship while others continue the tank battle. If gunship is too far, then I would just call everyone pop smoke and carefully hide behind the cover and continue engage, while request artillery smoke and bring AA.

It would be great if AB introduce some system like helicopter AI change their position automatically, or at least make them reduce their altitude and hide in safe position for a while. Currently in AB we can set 2 hovering region for each helicopter squad. I wish they automatically change their position to other one if they are being shot at. Apache was able to shot Hellfire from NLOS position. But I guess we got to wait for the future to see such NLOS engagement.

[mmacguinness]

Re TGT engagment matrix:

TacOps had a very effective and flexible system for managing Target Priorities.

1 Fire Control

Set the max engagement range for first shot. AB has this.

2 Rules of Engagement.

Tacops supported multiple sides/factions in one game. One player could be Tank Company Commander, another the infantry, etc. Set rules of engagement between each player/side/faction. Not applicable to AB.

3 Target Unit

Choose a particular Unit as Target and assign a High or Low Priority to it.

4 Direct Fire Target Reference Point

Ref. the lower map. Choose a target reference and radius and assign a priority.
In the example, the tank platoon can engage out to 3500m, though since the max LOS is probably less than 1000m, max range doesn't matter, the Direct Target Reference Point is given with radius 400m High Priority and the Target Type is Vehicle - Tank, Low Priority. There are no enemy units in LOS and none is assigned as a target.
The tank platoon will focus most but not quite all of its attention on the DTRP and will give priority to tanks, but will not ignore other targets. If tanks were a high priority, it would probably hold fire until one appears. If the DTRP were Low Priority, it would divide its attention more evenly between it and other approaches.
With these Target Priorities set, the defending tank platoon is virtually guaranteed first shot against anything coming down the road through the woods