Beta Feedback on 1.08.03

[DasTactic]

First of all, I'm loving the new changes. Especially to the vehicle recruit amounts. The game is starting to feel like we are entering a polishing phase now rather than having such sweeping changes like we have seen in the past.

- Not sure why we don't just have the final amount for the troops rather than needing to have the old full amount (eg, buying a buggy shows 500 recruits required yet only uses 200). I do like that with armoured cars you get about 4 turns worth of food now so if changing the recruit cost means reducing the food capacity then I'd prefer to have the less-intuitive recruit cost but with the food benefit.

- When units get energy weapons, if they have status messages they appear off the screen. Such as 'Pick up issue' etc.

- When you have two SHQs and they need to transfer goods across the network, the amounts are only listed for the road and not the total of road and rail. If you use all the road points available then it will show the rail amount and you can transfer that way afterwards. But it is a little disconcerting when you see low numbers.

- In the tech screen, it would be great to have an indicator next to whichever tech is currently being researched rather than needing to open up the Reports to see what the current techs are.

- I've asked for this before but please add the planet summary page to the Help reports as well as the Auxilliary Info on the life-forms. Would be great to eventually have a bestiary of what is on the planet - even if it only shows what you've come across.

- I think it is being addressed but I feel it is important to have more options on how the factions (particularly the majors) are setup at the start of the game. Eg: Clustered together. Spread equally. Etc.

- I struggle to see the benefit of many of the OOBs. It seems to me it would be better to either have tangible benefits for having the combined arms or just drop the more convoluted forms and allow the player to manage the combined arms attacks on the field.

- I can't remember seeing an anti-tank gun/infantry OOB but I feel that one would be useful.

- Maybe also considering allowing a smaller number of AT guns in the smaller indie types. Say 2 rather than 5. That way they could be better spread across the front to support units.

- I'm finding I pretty much exclusively go for Brigade size formations and rarely opt for Corp size and never Army size. I'd suggest re-thinking the troop amounts across the board and have a smaller size option. -- EDIT TO CLARIFY: -- So a Battalion formation would be say 40% the size they are currently, Regiment units would be the same as the current Battalion units, and Division units would the size of the current Regiment units.
So when that extrapolates across to the formations with OHQ's, the overall troop and equipment components would be much smaller and individually they wouldn't be able to push back the extra hexes (so more like how Sentinels work in the game). Smaller formations of AT guns or AA guns may be able to be spread more easily to defend larger areas but with weaker effect.
Where this would break-down is with the more convoluted OOBs where there are small numbers of different units but if the OOBs were streamlined then that should still be able to work

Cheers

Das

[newageofpower]

Armies might be useful if scenario editor ever makes it in, but currently 99% of starts have too little world pop for it to make sense.

[eddieballgame]

Excellent points, Das.

[BlueTemplar]

Generally you probably want to put your beta feedback in the dedicated thread, I'm not even sure Vic even reads (or reads all) the messages in the "general" "sub"forum ?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4824133


Yeah, the game is clearly slowly coming out of alpha, it might be time to think of releasing it on Steam in Early Access !
Oh, wait... [:'(]

1.) Are you *sure* you only need 200 ? It kind of seems like you need the full 500, but then (for buggies/APCs) you get 333 back to the SHQ ?
(And kind of weird to then see 33 recruits just "hanging out" in the SHQ (in Assets Management's Items report), and not being reported in the main screen...)

2.) I think this only happens when a unit uses all 3 of fuel, ammo and energy, leading to 5 logistic categories on top of replacement and food ?

5.) On top of the always there Planet Statistics and Agricultural Crops reports, the Planet Generation pages are already there depending with which setting for planet generation you started with. It *is* a shame though that you don't get to see them even after you win the game. (Even better would be to be able to slowly uncover this information as you explore the planet !)

7.) Any examples of OOBs you don't see the benefit of ?

9.) You don't *have* to completely fill out formations.
OTOH the problem with using only 2 (non-motorized) subunits is that you won't be able to do it manually
(you'll have to have the 3rd one to get killed somehow, or maybe shenanigans with obsolete models being recalled might work ?),
but especially : you're going to get an HP penalty in combat !

10.) See already above about the less than 3 subunits penalty.
Clearly what you're asking for is already in the game (but with 3 subunits instead of 2).
I'm more concerned about how using Regiments/Divisions is kind of an exploit to make these specialized units:
Why would I *really* bother with Battalion/Regiment Heavy OOBs (or unattached Independents) when I can achieve pretty much the same thing with "understaffed" Regiments/Divisions of the corresponding "Light" OOBs ?
(I guess at *some point* if I need really large specialized units I will *have* to get them, but so far I haven't even used Divisions for that yet...)

[BlueTemplar]

Well, just as I was typing this :

Changelist for v1.08.04
-Added customization of Formation Types task to the Staff Council (!)*
[...]
*=requires new game start [ [:(] ]

[Clux]

ORIGINAL: newageofpower

Armies might be useful if scenario editor ever makes it in, but currently 99% of starts have too little world pop for it to make sense.

Vic as answered already on social media than a scenario editor its not possible: "map editor is a no go for now due to the complexity and interlockedness of the data".

You don't need to field corps size since you're not playing on medium/large worlds or PvP in multiplayer, where they truly shine, as in SP you can easily steamroll the AI even with just independent formations

[DasTactic]

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Generally you probably want to put your beta feedback in the dedicated thread, I'm not even sure Vic even reads (or reads all) the messages in the "general" "sub"forum ?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4824133

I decided against adding it in there as there is only one other post so it feels more like an announcement thread.

1.) Are you *sure* you only need 200 ? It kind of seems like you need the full 500, but then (for buggies/APCs) you get 333 back to the SHQ ?
(And kind of weird to then see 33 recruits just "hanging out" in the SHQ (in Assets Management's Items report), and not being reported in the main screen...)

I was livestreaming yesterday and was buying stacks of Buggy units (cheaper now to patrol borders than infantry for open terrain) and while the description stated that they needed 500 recruits it was only drawing 200 out of the pool with each purchase.

2.) I think this only happens when a unit uses all 3 of fuel, ammo and energy, leading to 5 logistic categories on top of replacement and food ?

Yes. 'Energy' extends into the next column so pushes the status across outside the UI.

5.) On top of the always there Planet Statistics and Agricultural Crops reports, the Planet Generation pages are already there depending with which setting for planet generation you started with. It *is* a shame though that you don't get to see them even after you win the game. (Even better would be to be able to slowly uncover this information as you explore the planet !)

No, the pages are not there. The summary page that lists the number of Minors and Xenos isn't carried through to the help file. And the auxiliary information pages showing the top life forms (with size, attack, defense, and competitive stats) as well as the evolution list don't carry through to the help files but are present during planet creation.

7.) Any examples of OOBs you don't see the benefit of ?

I pretty much ignore most of them so can't remember the various types.

9.) You don't *have* to completely fill out formations.
OTOH the problem with using only 2 (non-motorized) subunits is that you won't be able to do it manually
(you'll have to have the 3rd one to get killed somehow, or maybe shenanigans with obsolete models being recalled might work ?),
but especially : you're going to get an HP penalty in combat !

10.) See already above about the less than 3 subunits penalty.
Clearly what you're asking for is already in the game (but with 3 subunits instead of 2).
I'm more concerned about how using Regiments/Divisions is kind of an exploit to make these specialized units:
Why would I *really* bother with Battalion/Regiment Heavy OOBs (or unattached Independents) when I can achieve pretty much the same thing with "understaffed" Regiments/Divisions of the corresponding "Light" OOBs ?
(I guess at *some point* if I need really large specialized units I will *have* to get them, but so far I haven't even used Divisions for that yet...)

I was trying to understand what you were referencing here and then realized you thought I meant the number of sub-units in a formation rather than the number of recruits across a formation. I'll change my OP to make this clearer. I was thinking that the first level should be about 40% of the current amount of recruits (same number of units in OHQs etc).

[BlueTemplar]

1.)

I was livestreaming yesterday and was buying stacks of Buggy units (cheaper now to patrol borders than infantry for open terrain) and while the description stated that they needed 500 recruits it was only drawing 200 out of the pool with each purchase.

That's not what I meant.

To give an example :
If you only have 165 (166?) (167?) recruits in that SHQ (So 100 displayed, 65 (66?) (67?) "hidden"), will you be able to recruit 50 Buggies/APCs ?
Will you if you only have 200 recruits ?

(cheaper now to patrol borders than infantry for open terrain)

Are they ? (Especially than basic infantry !?)
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4980493

----

5.)

No, the pages are not there. The summary page that lists the number of Minors and Xenos isn't carried through to the help file. And the auxiliary information pages showing the top life forms (with size, attack, defense, and competitive stats) as well as the evolution list don't carry through to the help files but are present during planet creation.

Oh, *those* ones... I guess they only show up in games newly started with 1.08, so I've never seen them yet ..?

----

9.) 10.)

I was trying to understand what you were referencing here and then realized you thought I meant the number of sub-units in a formation rather than the number of recruits across a formation. I'll change my OP to make this clearer. I was thinking that the first level should be about 40% of the current amount of recruits (same number of units in OHQs etc).

I mean the number of subunits in a unit rather than the number of units in a formation, and I think you do too ?

BTW you can *also* reduce the number of units in a formation, by transferring away all their subunits (or getting them killed), though this will *not* allow you to attach more than 2 independent units to the formation!

[zgrssd]

- Not sure why we don't just have the final amount for the troops rather than needing to have the old full amount (eg, buying a buggy shows 500 recruits required yet only uses 200). I do like that with armoured cars you get about 4 turns worth of food now so if changing the recruit cost means reducing the food capacity then I'd prefer to have the less-intuitive recruit cost but with the food benefit.

I have one idea why he choose to do it like that:
100 Soldiers/Workers/Population is 1 Soldier/Worker/Population unit. 100 is the smalest unit of measurement the game has for humans and human equivalents.
Reducing the food consumption to a fractional value is doable, but not the overall manpower.
As a result, you can not make something cost 33 manpower or 20 manpower.
Everything has to cost either a multiple of 100 manpower, or 0 manpower (Robotic Units).

For the intial raising he may be able to somewhat account for the reduced price (except it does not evenly divide for a 5 subunit formation). The same applies if I buy reinforcements only in multiples of [Manpower Divider].
But what about buying reinforcements piecemeal? Buying 3 buggies piecemeal should also only cost 100 Manpower. And you should not be required to bulk-older 3 units (for 3 times the IP and Material cost) just to get a cost saving.

Given those limitation, Vic choose the next best thing to reduce the effective price - refunding the manpower in a lot of the cases. I am not 100% sure how he does it, but the two options are:
- manpower is refunded based on a simple percentile roll. As usual for any rolls, rolling often ends up with results inherently trending towards the average
- You do not get the refund on the first and then every [manpower divisor] units after. Effectively that means that all Buggies but the 1st and every 3rd after is not actually taking manpower

- I struggle to see the benefit of many of the OOBs. It seems to me it would be better to either have tangible benefits for having the combined arms or just drop the more convoluted forms and allow the player to manage the combined arms attacks on the field.

I totally agree and said so before:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4838731

Given that he has to manually managed all the Upgrade Links, Downgrade links and TOC's I am still convinced it is actually more a challenge for him then it is for us!

Vic was saying he was working on "something bigger" for 1.08.04, and I guess we now know that it was:

Added customization of Formation Types task to the Staff Council (!)*

I have not yet been able to take a look at the mechanic however.

- I'm finding I pretty much exclusively go for Brigade size formations and rarely opt for Corp size and never Army size. I'd suggest re-thinking the troop amounts across the board and have a smaller size option. -- EDIT TO CLARIFY: -- So a Battalion formation would be say 40% the size they are currently, Regiment units would be the same as the current Battalion units, and Division units would the size of the current Regiment units.
So when that extrapolates across to the formations with OHQ's, the overall troop and equipment components would be much smaller and individually they wouldn't be able to push back the extra hexes (so more like how Sentinels work in the game). Smaller formations of AT guns or AA guns may be able to be spread more easily to defend larger areas but with weaker effect.
Where this would break-down is with the more convoluted OOBs where there are small numbers of different units but if the OOBs were streamlined then that should still be able to work

That would be another large-ish rework.

Some AA weapons actually has the ability to defend nearby hexes. Maybe he could adapt that idea to work for types of weapons you usually deploy independant? And maybe really large formations could cover multiple hexes that way?
Of course that asumes you can not just spread those units through your formations with the OOB rework

[BlueTemplar]

(And kind of weird to then see 33 recruits just "hanging out" in the SHQ (in Assets Management's Items report), and not being reported in the main screen...)

Never mind about 1.), I got confused by the Assets Management's Items report reporting 72 Recruits for 7200...

EDIT: Looks like that it's fixed rather than random :
for instance you get no discount at all if you produce the buggies 1 by 1 or only a -50% discount rather than a -67% one if you produce them 2 by 2 :
100 Recruits each time to produce 1 or 2 buggies.

[Vic]

Thanks for the feedback Das! Its appreciated.

[Mercutio]

I would like some way to edit an OOB to include a support unit. Whether it be anti-tank, AA, etc.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Mercutio

I would like some way to edit an OOB to include a support unit. Whether it be anti-tank, AA, etc.

Isn't that exactly what you can do with the OOB Editing Option introduced in 04?