Minimalists (and their intention to restrict goals and progress)

[pasternakski]

I have read every post on this site and the majority of the ones on UV(they are getting extremely repetitive now so I skip around). It seems to me that a lot of them are very unjust and blatantly inflamatory. When the poster is confronted with direct rebuttal, he dodges the issues, blows a lot of smoke and contiunes in a different direction, rarely directly confronting the rebuttal. The remarks are thinly veiled attempts to hide arrogance and egos behind the camoflage of "just wanting to improve the game". I am happy that we have such a great game for them to criticize. I enjoy playing UV and appreciate just how difficult it is to develope a game like that. I know there are flaws but, in my opinion, it is the best thing produced so far. And it's fun to play.

Well, and of course you have to endure your share of mindless blather, as in the immediately preceding post by Shething, fiendish subhuman assistant to Minimal D1ck and his Maximal Tricks.

I couldn't agree with you more. I have enjoyed UV from the very first time I launched it, through the patch days, into the 2.30 era, and now into the "let's reach back and criticize the he11 out of it because we are so much wiser than Gary Grigsby, his design team, the testers, those who have worked like demons to improve it, and the imbeciles who have dared to come to its defense."

I have one word to invent to describe these people: "negativizers." I will infuse it with my own meaning, because, according to the true experts on language in these forums, you are free to make words mean whatever you want them to. A "negativizer" is someone who wants to kiss my big white butt and make the slurpy sound resonate all over the Matrix forums.

[mdiehl]

If you've got your eye on a post written by a 'negativizer' does that make you a 'negative eyeonizer?' [Ducking. ]

[mogami]

Hi, I know it is possible to get into a heated disscussion here because I've seen it done. The great "U-boat" debate (See page 14 "Gary Grigsby interview" thread Hijacked by U-boats)
Except for Nikademus who calls every one a weenie at some point, there was a low volume of mud slinging.

I really do wish we could flame off. ("Why can't we all just get along") You don't have to agree with one another but don't make it personal.

There is a difference between pointing out a fault or weakness in a programs functioning and attacking the people connected to it's development/testing/use.

Saying "No offense intended but your all a bunch of idiots" is not going to work.
We have moderaters but we really don't want to force them to intervene.
Protect your opinions and state them as often as you want just don't use insults. I've been carried away before and fired back myself much as I would like Chitengs statement to the reverse to be true it's not. I'll try to limit it in the future. (Just don't provoke me)

I can see in your faces your all paying attention and will try harder in the future.
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

[pasternakski]

There is a difference between pointing out a fault or weakness in a programs functioning and attacking the people connected to it's development/testing/use.

Saying "No offense intended but your all a bunch of idiots" is not going to work.
We have moderaters but we really don't want to force them to intervene.
Protect your opinions and state them as often as you want just don't use insults. I've been carried away before and fired back myself much as I would like Chitengs statement to the reverse to be true it's not. I'll try to limit it in the future.

No, no, no, Mog, I can't let you off that easy. You have become something of an icon around here, and some of us take you seriously. Once or twice, we have even come to your defense in the face of what we believe to be unwarranted attacks and baitings.

The only time I have seen you become irritable is when you have been characterized as ignorant, incompetent, and self-serving. Your patience has been admirable and your restraint estimable. Thank you for being such a friend to the hobby I enjoy.

Your analysis, hard work, and candor serve as an example not just in these frivolous pursuits, but in my professional work, as well. I hope you will
not be offended that I have recently cited you in the job search workshop I teach at my veteran service center. I say, "When you feel surrounded, hounded, and impounded, act this way. Do not take offense, respond with sense and eloquence" (apologies to the rhetorical style of Jesse Jackson, of course).

[Admiral DadMan]

"If I only had a brain..."

[mogami]

Subj: From Peter Boma.
Date: 10/22/2003 12:02:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: peterboma@voila.fr
To: peterboma@voila.fr
Sent from the Internet (Details)



From Peter Boma.



Dearest one.


I was in school early this year with my junior sister the time the rebels in our
country struck our town and killed my parents in one of their attacks.My
father,Dr mike Boma,was a wealthy Gold and Diamond merchant in our country
and a political ativis was among their target.

Fortunately for me and my junior sister, We was at school when the attack took
place. We also lost our seniors. When we got home we discovered some documents
indicating that our father had deposited the sum of $16.500.000.00M.United
States Dollars(Sixteen point Five million US dollars)in one of the Bank in West Africa

Please my dearest, Will you help us to transfer this money from bank here in
West Africa to your country.We are really desperate as we are left alone now in
the world.
We will give you 15% as your compensation if you help
us transfer this money to your country. Most importantly,We are seriously appeal
that you maintain high level of secrecy and confidentiallity in the whole
thing.

please,if you will help us transfer this money,first of all we want you to help
us to come over there because we don't have nobody to help again as of now.

yours sincerely,

Peter Boma.
------------------------------------------

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr


Everyone trusts Mogami. (Does anyone fall for such blatent scams?)

[pasternakski]

Real funny, Mog. See if I ever say anything good about you again or invoke the harmony of the heavenly trumpets to glorify your name.

Two weeks ago, I had a client in the Center who had fallen victim to some odd fixation having to do with deposits in African banks. He vaguely felt that his deceased son was involved and that he was entitled to a substantial sum of money.

One of the things I hate most about what I do in life is disabusing people of their misconceived fantasies.

[Luskan]

Flame off would be nice.

I like to think I've got a thick skin and don't need to bother to flame anyone (or even respond to anyone that is flaming me) but usually I can only keep myself in check for so long.

What we need for "flame off" is a really nasty iron fisted moderator on the forums (UglyDuck from the HOI forums does an excellent job of instilling fear into the forumites).

Either that, or we change the subscription rules to these forums (I've just had a brilliant idea)! Each year all members of the matrix games forums MUST meet other forum members within a reasonable locale (e.g. all aussies meet in one spot, maybe three or four spots around the USA for the yanks.). If you don't show up to the meeting you can't post on the forums.

That way, when some pimple faced teen decides to flame you from the safety of his keyboard, you get an opportunity to meet him in person . . . After all, a good debate can be expressed in many forms!

[mogami]

Hi, I'd rather confine all my encounters with disgruntled postal employees or trench coat wearing highschool malcontents to the internet. I'd rather have a meeting with all the folks I get along with at some nice pub with a dart and chess board.

[Mike Scholl]

Hi, I'd rather confine all my encounters with disgruntled postal employees or trench coat wearing highschool malcontents to the internet. I'd rather have a meeting with all the folks I get along with at some nice pub with a dart and chess board.

As intense as the desire can get to slip on a set of "Brass Knuckles" and "beat
some sense into" a few posters, it generally dissappears after a few deep breaths and another long "pull" at whatever beverage you prefer. If I were
to go to the trouble of meeting some posters, far better it be those who I
respect. May not agree with them, but the discussion and the drinking would
be much more enjoyable and worthwhile without the presense or the "truely
stupid".

[Luskan]

Of course it would - but the point is that if they knew that they'd have to meet everyone face to face, those on the forums who do flame with little or no provocation would have a big incentive to think twice.

In any case, a game of darts would be an excellent way to settle a debate once and for all - or some sort of drinking competition.

[madflava13]

Mogami-
People actually fall for that scam quite often, as sad as that sounds. I used to work in the (US) Dept. of Justice and our office handled a lot of these things. People would call in saying they'd received the emails, sent their bank account # and hadn't heard back. About once a month we'd get one of those calls. The "Nigerian Scams" as they are called are so bad that the Secret Service and DOJ have a joint task force set up to deal with the problem...

[pasternakski]

Look, I'm all for friendly, spirited debate where the posters focus on issues, not personalities. I appreciate the comments of the "gentle spirited" folk who think we should all pull out our "My Buddy" dollies and play dressup.

But all you have to do is review a few of the more notorious threads, including the first part of this one. It just doesn't work that way here, and there are several people who work as hard as they can to prevent it. They insinuate, insult without provocation, then rant about how they have been wronged somehow.

When I get caustic, my intent is simply to put these trolls back in their place and hold 'em up by their balls so that everyone can see them for what they are. I have no apologies to make for having acted thus, and have no plans to back off in the future.

If the discussion stays at a mature, objective level, fine. I enjoy reading and trying to contribute. When these egomaniacs start trotting out their polemics and indulging their psychoses, I'm d#mned of I'm going to sit by quietly and let them ruin a perfectly good conversation.

[Chiteng]

Except of course that certain people dont agree that they are being polemical.
Some of them are quite serious in what they have to say.

However because of personal animous certain other people will NEVER allow
any post by such people to go unchallenged. The desire to demean, and debase
is too great.

It IS possible to make a post without a personal attack or insult. I do it all the time.

It is the usurption of a unilateral attribution of character, to a specific author.
Such people are NOT willing to allow other readers to make their own conclusions. They feel obligated to attempt to predjudice all judgements.

[Admiral DadMan]

Hi, I'd rather confine all my encounters with disgruntled postal employees or trench coat wearing highschool malcontents to the internet. I'd rather have a meeting with all the folks I get along with at some nice pub with a dart and chess board.

Talk about the odds of inducing malice and mayhem...

[Peter Weir]

Except of course that certain people dont agree that they are being polemical. Some of them are quite serious in what they have to say.

However because of personal animous certain other people will NEVER allow any post by such people to go unchallenged. The desire to demean, and debase
is too great.

It IS possible to make a post without a personal attack or insult. I do it all the time.

It is the usurption of a unilateral attribution of character, to a specific author.
Such people are NOT willing to allow other readers to make their own conclusions. They feel obligated to attempt to predjudice all judgements.

That's what I see too Chiteng. What seem to have are a group banded together with a them and us kind of mind set and the funny partis that the peoplle most upset with the name calling use this tecnique the most. There seems almost no acceptance for real criticism in some arewas and the best example would be the Zero and wildcat problem. Or maybe I should say theres acceptance of criticism as along as it never quite leads to a resolutin of th eproblem, so I guess its more like you can criticze but were not going to actually change it because we don't agree with you. My problem with that is becominf large as mdeihl has made a great case with not much progress that I can see in terms of the whole forum. Im not sure it's better with witp or not but really the attitude in here is not real warm towards a lot of change.

You say personal animous and this threed is the prefect exampl eof that.Something on the humorous side is blown out of proportion even by the forum moderater with the message re Macarthur and scuh completely lost with more name calling because name callershave to put in there .02 worth always. What I see is blaming and usually the blame is just on one person and hes doing more work thananyone else as far as examinign the game for mistakes. Thats negativity in anyones book where I live and work.

I only get one vote in here but I'd much rather read thoughtful posts that are writen well even if they are that critical all the time than a bunch of negative stuff immediately afterdirected only at the man who posts those critiqeus andonly to drown out the original idea. That kind of activity has one a purpose-to knock down something some oneelse has built and that's mean and destructive. I also notice a tendecny to take criticim of ideas and things as personal criticim so with that working it's not possible to write critical ideas in teh first place so whats the use? The idea seems to be either go with the flo or hit the road. Not much of a choice if yoiu ask me.

[Mike_B20]

This forum is just so darn full of positivists, maximalists and allied neo-apologists.
If an allied player is too thick to keep more than a couple Wildcats alive in UV then to hell with him and his wussy aircraft.

[Chiteng]

That's what I see too Chiteng. What seem to have are a group banded together with a them and us kind of mind set and the funny partis that the peoplle most upset with the name calling use this tecnique the most. There seems almost no acceptance for real criticism in some arewas and the best example would be the Zero and wildcat problem. Or maybe I should say theres acceptance of criticism as along as it never quite leads to a resolutin of th eproblem, so I guess its more like you can criticze but were not going to actually change it because we don't agree with you. My problem with that is becominf large as mdeihl has made a great case with not much progress that I can see in terms of the whole forum. Im not sure it's better with witp or not but really the attitude in here is not real warm towards a lot of change.

You say personal animous and this threed is the prefect exampl eof that.Something on the humorous side is blown out of proportion even by the forum moderater with the message re Macarthur and scuh completely lost with more name calling because name callershave to put in there .02 worth always. What I see is blaming and usually the blame is just on one person and hes doing more work thananyone else as far as examinign the game for mistakes. Thats negativity in anyones book where I live and work.

I only get one vote in here but I'd much rather read thoughtful posts that are writen well even if they are that critical all the time than a bunch of negative stuff immediately afterdirected only at the man who posts those critiqeus andonly to drown out the original idea. That kind of activity has one a purpose-to knock down something some oneelse has built and that's mean and destructive. I also notice a tendecny to take criticim of ideas and things as personal criticim so with that working it's not possible to write critical ideas in teh first place so whats the use? The idea seems to be either go with the flo or hit the road. Not much of a choice if yoiu ask me.

Well Peter that is what sets children apart from adults. It is called 'Objectivity'.

You learn that even the most outspoken enemy is not always wrong.
Pasternaski for example, made a statement about the behavior of a combat vet
in a modern high risk situation. If you agree with him, as I did, you must
admit it, or you are no longer objective.

It is people who NEVER conceed any element of correctness to the opponent,
that reveal themselves as non-objective. The agenda they follow, has nothing
to do with the post at hand, and everything to do with the AUTHOR.

However, if I choose to disagree with Mdiehl as to the effects of:
Initiative, tempo and Pilot experience, upon the effectiveness of the classic Zero. Then that is my choice. For me, I dont agree with his parameters.
If I dont agree with his parameters, then I wont agree with his conclusions.

However, I do NOT debase his argument with name calling and insults.
I just point out that the SRA and PI were secured 'relatively' easily.
And they were.

If people would limit their responce to 'I dont agree' instead of what you see here, then we would have FAR fewer arguments.

[madflava13]

Chiteng, I think you hit the nail on the head with that last sentence...

[pasternakski]

Chiteng, I think you hit the nail on the head with that last sentence...

I don't agree.