Interesting situation

[wobbleguts]

Hi,

Playing as the Axis (mostly Germany).

Did a few detours from historical fact (like invading Sweden) and have been spending diplomacy points to keep the USA and Russia out of the war.

All going well. It is now 1942 and strategically I really should have DOW on the USSR by now, but I decided to mop up N Africa a bit instead. I conquered Algeria and Tunisia and started shipping more Italian/German units to Tunisia to threaten the Brits in Libya.

Suddenly, 3 USA air units have arrived in Libya - a fighter unit and 2 tactical bombers. The USA is not at war with either Italy or Germany, but if I select the Axis air units I can attack them and inflict losses.

So what do I do? I have German tank units being transported there to push the British back. I want to keep the US out of the war a bit longer. Do I fight around the US air units but leave them alone? Will they just go away if Libya is re-taken? If I do attack them does that mean instant war? It seems like pure provocation by the US. If so the game is more sophisticated then I thought.

[Platoonist]

So, what has Japan been doing during this same time period? Stirring the sleeping giant?

[wobbleguts]

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

So, what has Japan been doing during this same time period? Stirring the sleeping giant?

Japan is at war with the USA as expected.

[wobbleguts]

Update....

I invaded Libya and went around the US air units to attack the Brits. Didn't touch them in any way. 2 of the US air units left when Libya was conquered but 1 stayed there until I had conquered Egypt. Then it just disappeared.

Any thoughts?

[Hubert Cater]

Since it is possible for allied majors like the US and the UK to be at war with other different majors the game needs to be able to handle a situation such as above.

For example, Japan and USA are at war, and Germany and the UK are at war, but Germany and the US are not at war.

Then if US units are in UK territory (which is possible as they are common allies), what to do if Germany is also in that territory. The game handles this by allowing the Germans to fight the US units even though they are not at war. Anything otherwise could lead to gamey situations, e.g. US air units defending Tripoli could block the Germans from doing anything.

Long story short, what you've seen in your game is perfectly normal.

The US unit that disappeared may have been operated out to friendly connected territory, automatically by the game engine upon Libyan surrender, or the US air unit surrendered. If it was the latter there is usually a message that goes with that if messages are on.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

For example, Japan and USA are at war, and Germany and the UK are at war, but Germany and the US are not at war.

The game handles this by allowing the Germans to fight the US units even though they are not at war. Anything otherwise could lead to gamey situations, e.g. US air units defending Tripoli could block the Germans from doing anything.

I was in the above illustrated situation in a MP that's still ongoing with me as the Allies. The Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor and thus the USA. I had moved some USA air assets into Egypt...but was not at war with Germany yet. My opponent (Axis) didn't have Germany wardec the USA, but he was able to do air strikes on my USA air units in Egypt.

This seemed reasonable...and I had the USA wardec Germany the next turn. (I had forgot to do that for the USA the previous turn [:D]).

[wobbleguts]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Since it is possible for allied majors like the US and the UK to be at war with other different majors the game needs to be able to handle a situation such as above.

For example, Japan and USA are at war, and Germany and the UK are at war, but Germany and the US are not at war.

Then if US units are in UK territory (which is possible as they are common allies), what to do if Germany is also in that territory. The game handles this by allowing the Germans to fight the US units even though they are not at war. Anything otherwise could lead to gamey situations, e.g. US air units defending Tripoli could block the Germans from doing anything.

Long story short, what you've seen in your game is perfectly normal.

The US unit that disappeared may have been operated out to friendly connected territory, automatically by the game engine upon Libyan surrender, or the US air unit surrendered. If it was the latter there is usually a message that goes with that if messages are on.

OK, my main takeaway from this is that I could have attacked the US units and it wouldn't have led to war. Thanks for the info, but in real world terms it seems unrealistic. Surely attacking these units would have led to an escalation of tension between the USA and Germany - but if that's the way the game works It's OK.

However, I now have an even more interesting situation. A situation that is so confusing I have stopped the game.

The CW launched an AV force of Brits and Canadians to France. I sank about half of them before they got there. There were also a lot of USA ships and transports but I am not at war with them (couldn't attack them if I wanted to) so left them alone.

The next turn, the CW landed the troops in France. I destroyed them all except for 1 Canadian unit that was reduced to 2 strength. Moved some extra units to destroy it next turn.

But next turn went pear shaped. A US paratroop unit has dropped in the hex below the Canadians.

The Canadians are completely surrounded but I cannot attack them from land or air. I get that yellow hex colour when I target them.

However, I am able to attack the USA unit. WTF is going on?

My uninformed/ignorant/grasping at straws explanation is that the CW landed an Invasion force and took control of some hexes, A US unit then landed there because it was allied territory and the isolated Canadian unit is now in the USA ZOC. As the Canadians are now in US territory I can't attack them. Is that correct? But I can still attack the US unit without starting a war with them?

If someone would like to take a look at this I have saved the game and can email it.

In the meantime, you said I could attack the US unit without starting a war with the US. I will do this and see what happens.

Thanks

[wobbleguts]

Update: Destroyed the US paratroops. USA did not declare war which is good. However, the surrounded Canadian unit is still immune to attack. They have dropped to strength 1 because of isolation. Why am I unable to attack them? Seems like a big bug.

[wobbleguts]

Another update. The Canadian unit died of attrition, so the hex is now empty. None of my German units can enter this hex. The hex is apparently owned by France (not V France). This has to be a bug.

[wobbleguts]

The hex has now been occupied by a US unit and I can't attack it. Aarrgh!

[boudi]

Surely a United Nations peacekeeping operation with blue helmets.

[Hubert Cater]

Hi Wobbleguts,

Difficult to say without seeing the turn first hand and if there might be something amiss with the game engine or with all the changes from your mod that the game engine might not handle quite right.

Could you send over a saved game for me to look at where I can see this issue first hand?

Please send to support@furysoftware.com

Hubert

[wobbleguts]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi Wobbleguts,

Difficult to say without seeing the turn first hand and if there might be something amiss with the game engine or with all the changes from your mod that the game engine might not handle quite right.

Could you send over a saved game for me to look at where I can see this issue first hand?

Please send to support@furysoftware.com

Hubert

Hi Hubert,

Saved game has been sent.

[Hubert Cater]

Thank you for the files and I see the issue. What has happened is that the US is not at war with Germany and yet the US AI went ahead with an amphibious assault on the coast of France. This part I will fix for the next update so that the AI will ensure proper belligerence for any hex it is about to target and invade, but with that aside, the result is that in your game the US unit that ended up in France but on a UK controlled tile you could attack, yet the Canadian unit that ended up on a US controlled tile in France you could not attack as it is in US territory and you are not at war with the US.

This should as mentioned all be corrected for the next update so that you will no longer have this issue in a fresh game started after the next patch.

[wobbleguts]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thank you for the files and I see the issue. What has happened is that the US is not at war with Germany and yet the US AI went ahead with an amphibious assault on the coast of France. This part I will fix for the next update so that the AI will ensure proper belligerence for any hex it is about to target and invade, but with that aside, the result is that in your game the US unit that ended up in France but on a UK controlled tile you could attack, yet the Canadian unit that ended up on a US controlled tile in France you could not attack as it is in US territory and you are not at war with the US.

This should as mentioned all be corrected for the next update so that you will no longer have this issue in a fresh game started after the next patch.

So I was right! Glad I helped to fix a bug.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks although I misspoke a bit as the AI can't really check for belligerence as essentially that is a big part of Amphibious assaults, e.g. attacking territory that it is not yet at war with, e.g. Japan attacking the Philippines, or the US invading Algeria via the Operation Torch.

It is not always the case this way, but a significant part of the feature of Amphibious assaults.

The only sure fire way I can correct the problem you found in your game, e.g. in the case of the US attempting to land in occupied France while not at war with Germany would be for the AI to declare war on Germany first which would then still act as a way to resolve the issue you discovered.

However, assuming you would not want the US AI to invade France if you were not at war with them, the way around this new failsafe coming in the next patch would be for you to turn off those US AI invasion scripts in your mod.

This can be done by removing them from your mod, recompiling the modded AI scripts, or by changing the #FLAG= 1 value to #FLAG= 0 and recompiling the modded AI scripts and then saving.

In the next update this will actually be even easier as you will now be able to access these AI events in game and turn them off from there, providing even more control and in a more accessible way.