Minimalists (and their intention to restrict goals and progress)

[Mike_B20]

Mike? 10-20% Operational losses???

Thats 1-2 planes for every flight of 10. 30 odd days in a month, thats 30-60 planes a month! You don't get that many B-17's!

I think you are in denial

Btw: there are separate pools for the various groups, the big problem you start with in UV is a mass shortage of aircraft. Planes flood in stripping the pool at record rates and the skill slips down the tubes fairly quickly. This may be why you are seeing it more in B-17's ... with the slower aircraft rate, the pilot pool has been raped and pillaged by the B-25/26/PBY/P-39/etc.

Just another reason to pull back and heal up instead of going on the offensive at the start of the game. Once you dump your pilot pool into the crapper, you screw up a lot of air units and it takes months to get them back to where they started the game at...

Yes Mr Frag,
I often experience 10-20% operational losses of my B17's...even on "milk runs", where no flak or enemy fighters are encountered, clear weather, at normal range with low fatigue and skilled pilots.
The high operational losses for B17's seem hard coded into UV.

The low skill pilots are being sent to my B17's (and other squads) regardless of whether the squads need pilots (one B17 squad has 30 pilots).
I have been husbanding my bomber strength but cannot stem the stream of these knuckleheads.

[Mr.Frag]

Mike, can you give me a base to base idea of what you are doing so I can check out an equal setup in WitP ... Also how often you use them...

ie: daily, only when weather is good, etc...

ie: Townsville bombing Lae or Gili-Gili ...

Also, the unit names involved? (I assume you are playing with the 4 starting groups in Rocky... unless you say otherwise)

Operational losses are very tough to track in UV, WitP makes it simple with them being broken up between Air, Flak, Ops each day.

[Mike_B20]

No Mr Frag, I'm too slack

Seriously though, just fly a few missions in clear or partly cloudy weather, with reasonably skilled low fatigue high morale pilots, at normal range (why not long range...they were designed for it), against targets devoid of flak or fighters and you will see what I mean.

I'm amazed noone else sees this.

[Mr.Frag]

I don't normally see it, but then I am one who runs and hides at the start of the game knowing that if I don't, I am going to be saddled with crappy pilots that commit suicide non-stop. Remember me, the guy who sticks the "For Rent" sign up at PM?

I suppose I can be rude and throw all them crappy fighters at PM and let Japan drain my pilot pool for 30 days then see where we sit ... cruel though ...

[mogami]

Hi, These numbers are from one of my PBEM games. The date is 11-24-42
I have lost a total of 23 B-17E so far.
I do not fly naval strikes or patrol with B-17. I also do not train the groups because they are already mostly trained. So these mission totals reflect
Port/Airfield/Ground attack missions. I escort the groups when possible.
In this game the Japanese are on Luganville and I have divided my B-17 between 3 airfields. Noumea, Tomo, and Efate. I have 145 B-17 on map and have lost 23. This is a 13.6 Percent loss rate.(23 of 168) (my mission rate is around .5 percent)(10 percent per mission for 13 full strength group would be 15.6 ac per mission. At my present strength it would be 14.5 ac per mission. )

Group-# of pilots-Avg Exp-highest mission total-ac in group
23rd-8-65-2-8
26th-13-74-27-12
28th-12-85-30-12
30th-12-58-7-10
31st-12-60-3-12
42nd-13-76-25-12
63rd-14-70-21-9
64th-13-71-11-11
65th-13-72-12-12
72nd-12-76-20-11
98th-11-68-21-11
403rd-12-71-11-12
435th-12-76-30-11

[Mike_B20]

Hi, These numbers are from one of my PBEM games. The date is 11-24-42
I have lost a total of 23 B-17E so far.
I do not fly naval strikes or patrol with B-17. I also do not train the groups because they are already mostly trained. So these mission totals reflect
Port/Airfield/Ground attack missions. I escort the groups when possible.
In this game the Japanese are on Luganville and I have divided my B-17 between 3 airfields. Noumea, Tomo, and Efate. I have 145 B-17 on map and have lost 23. This is a 13.6 Percent loss rate.(23 of 168) (my mission rate is around .5 percent)(10 percent per mission for 13 full strength group would be 15.6 ac per mission. At my present strength it would be 14.5 ac per mission. )

Group-# of pilots-Avg Exp-highest mission total-ac in group
23rd-8-65-2-8
26th-13-74-27-12
28th-12-85-30-12
30th-12-58-7-10
31st-12-60-3-12
42nd-13-76-25-12
63rd-14-70-21-9
64th-13-71-11-11
65th-13-72-12-12
72nd-12-76-20-11
98th-11-68-21-11
403rd-12-71-11-12
435th-12-76-30-11

The stats for my B17's in my current PBEM scenario 17 as at 5th December 42.

Pilots AC Exp

31st BS 9 9 57
23rd BS 11 11 68
72nd 15 10 70
431st 15 10 64
98th 15 10 65
26th 25 11 65
42nd 15 12 72
403rd 13 12 66
65th 15 10 64
64th 11 11 68
63rd 15 12 65
30th 15 10 81
28th 21 9 79


I've lost 27 B17's so far.
I tend to use approximately half my B17's on search missions to train them up.
If I'm not intending to fly a bombing mission in the next few days I'll have all my b17's on approx 30-40% Naval Search.

I've lost a few (several?) B17's changing bases and 1 B17 flying Naval Search mission in thunderstorm.

Most (all?) B17 missions for this game shown below.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/07/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy


Air attack on Gili Gili , at 17,42

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 4

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 24 * flew from Cairns, daylight no operational losses

no losses

no losses

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 15

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 4

Attacking Level Bombers:
6 x B-17E Fortress at 20000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 20000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 20000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 20000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 20000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress at 20000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/13/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy


Air attack on Buna , at 12,38


Allied aircraft
F-5A Lightning x 5
B-17E Fortress x 19 * From Cairns, daylight, 1 operational loss *


no losses

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 37

Port supply hits 3

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 09/05/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy


Air attack on Port Moresby , at 10,40


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 8 * flew from Cairns, daylight, 4 lost *


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 3 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 39
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 2

Attacking Level Bombers:
8 x B-17E Fortress at 10000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Port Moresby , at 10,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 3

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 21 * flew from Cairns

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 206

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 23

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 10000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 10000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Tulagi , at 38,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 3

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 31 * flew from Luganville

no losses

no losses

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 23

Port hits 1
Port fuel hits 1

Attacking Level Bombers:
0 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
1 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 09/12/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 16 * From Luganville, night flight, 3 lost


no losses

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 5

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 8

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 12000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 11/04/42

Weather: Clear

Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40

Japanese aircraft

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 31 * from Luganville, night, 2 lost

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 damaged

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 23

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 11/22/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 29 *From Kourourotopo, night, no losses


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 47

Port hits 3
Port supply hits 2

Attacking Level Bombers:
6 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 11/24/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40

Japanese aircraft

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 24 *from Kourourotopo, night, 4 losses

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty x 3 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 4

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 23

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 11/25/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 19 *From Kourourotopo, night , no losses


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 9
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 11

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 11/28/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 22 * from Kourouratopo, night, 3 losses


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 3 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 46

Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 17

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/04/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 37

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 9 damaged * From Wunpunko, daylight, 6 lost (ouch)*

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 116
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 47

Attacking Level Bombers:
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet
0 x B-17E Fortress at 8000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[mogami]

Hi, I wonder what impact altitude has. I always fly at 9k. (I think at 9k I am above the small cal AA) I think the AA at Lunga must be pretty tough.


Chiteng, You can see B-17's do get shot down.
Another PBEM this one is scenario 17 date 4-26-43 B-17E lost=103

Group-AC(pilots)Exp-Missions
28th 9(12) 68 45
30th 9(12) 69 37
31st 9(13) 63 24
42nd 11(34) 67 40
63rd 10(12) 74 39
64th 9(12) 73 27
65th 9(12) 64 28
394th 9(21) 65 20
400th 10(12) 68 6
431st 11(12) 77 37
435th 9 (14) 68 27

49.5 percent loss rate. (105 on map plus 103 lost=208 total)
2.28 ac lost per mission=roughly 2 percent loss per mission


Sizes of last 7 B-17 attacks 89-45-94-83-84-94-101

[Chiteng]

Not fast enough =P

[tabpub]

Mike, I think the problem that you might be having is the size of the strip that you are basing the 17's out of. There seems to be a correlation between your losses and your missions out of Wunpuko and Kourotopo(sic). Both those bases are small as I recall and even though you might have built them up to level 4's to enable level bomber ops, the 17's would be better off at a size 7+ field so that the damaged planes don't prang it on the return landing.

[Admiral DadMan]

Hi, I wonder what impact altitude has. I always fly at 9k. (I think at 9k I am above the small cal AA) I think the AA at Lunga must be pretty tough.

I try to put heavy stuff where I know Mogami has to hit me with heavies...

[Mike_B20]

Mike, I think the problem that you might be having is the size of the strip that you are basing the 17's out of. There seems to be a correlation between your losses and your missions out of Wunpuko and Kourotopo(sic). Both those bases are small as I recall and even though you might have built them up to level 4's to enable level bomber ops, the 17's would be better off at a size 7+ field so that the damaged planes don't prang it on the return landing.

You might be right tabpub, although I did suffer some op losses even when flying from size 9 airfields.

There are penalties for flying missions at long range.
Doing a hex count of the distance between Luganville and Lunga I noticed that although Lunga appears to be within the normal range "ring" when viewed on the map it is in fact a few hexes over normal range...therefore I thought I'd try a few raids from a closer base, figuring the benefits might outweigh the penalty of flying them from a size four airbase.

Also, I've been playing musical airfields with my opponent re B17's bases.
He keeps tring to hit them with night Betty missions

[Da Hammer]

I cant believe I wasted six minutes of my life reading this thread....