102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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pavel01
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by pavel01 »

ORIGINAL: Ian R

The best way to shut down runways is with BB main armament. Repeatedly, so the engineers don't get ahead of it.

The rest is just FOW.

sincerely yours,

...

Are you sure ?

Because, according to :

Manual Section 3.0, Naval Bombardment comes "before" Base Repair/Construction.....

Therefore, if the Base has sufficient engineers, and they are so damn good and fast at fixing Runways, no matter how badly hit that they might be, I do not see how it would ever be possible to put an Airfield "out of Order" for the following Air Combat....

Bottom line is, I get the impression that, as long as there is enough engineers at a Base (how many would be "enough" to replace functionality of even a badly hit Runway/Airport ?), it simply is not possible to stop that Base to put up Airplanes in its defense against an Air Attack to that Base...
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Sardaukar
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: pavel01
ORIGINAL: Ian R

The best way to shut down runways is with BB main armament. Repeatedly, so the engineers don't get ahead of it.

The rest is just FOW.

sincerely yours,

...

Are you sure ?

Because, according to :

Manual Section 3.0, Naval Bombardment comes "before" Base Repair/Construction.....

Therefore, if the Base has sufficient engineers, and they are so damn good and fast at fixing Runways, no matter how badly hit that they might be, I do not see how it would ever be possible to put an Airfield "out of Order" for the following Air Combat....

Bottom line is, I get the impression that, as long as there is enough engineers at a Base (how many would be "enough" to replace functionality of even a badly hit Runway/Airport ?), it simply is not possible to stop that Base to put up Airplanes in its defense against an Air Attack to that Base...

It is.

It just takes continuous attacks for quite a long time. Allied 4-engined bombers coming daily can close airbases almost permanently. Japan just don't have engineering capacity to repair faster than e.g. 50+ B-17/B-24 etc. can deliver damage.

Don't even attempt to think about closing AF for operations with Kido Butai unless it's small/without engineers. They are by nature a raiding force and lack the late war USN Replenishment TFs, so they run out of attack sorties (think those as bombs etc., torpedoes are counted separately) after few days.

USN CV TFs in 1944/45 can be devastating to air fields too, mainly because they can rotate TFs and replenish some of the ordnance at sea.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by Platoonist »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

It just takes continuous attacks for quite a long time. Allied 4-engined bombers coming daily can close airbases almost permanently. Japan just don't have engineering capacity to repair faster than e.g. 50+ B-17/B-24 etc. can deliver damage.

I think most historians would agree that the Allies overwhelmingly won the air campaign over the famous Japanese air complex at Rabaul. Even so, this required constant air strikes against the fortress to negate it as an airbase. Total Japanese losses were something in the neighborhood of 359 aircraft from November 1943 to March 1944. For the group Aircraft-Solomon Islands at Bougainville (AIRSOLS) combat losses were 136 aircraft. Thereafter AIRSOLS continued to stage raids over the fortress, gradually destroying the antiaircraft gun positions and keeping the runways cratered. However, in spite of AIRSOLS' best efforts, the Japanese preserved over half their antiaircraft guns by moving them frequently among prepared positions dug into the ground, and at least one concrete runway was kept usable at all times.

Smaller airfields are usually not such a tough nut to crack.
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by Ian R »

ORIGINAL: Ian R

The best way to shut down runways is with BB main armament. Repeatedly, so the engineers don't get ahead of it.

The rest is just FOW.

sincerely yours,

...
Are you sure ?

Yes.
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Sardaukar
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

It just takes continuous attacks for quite a long time. Allied 4-engined bombers coming daily can close airbases almost permanently. Japan just don't have engineering capacity to repair faster than e.g. 50+ B-17/B-24 etc. can deliver damage.

I think most historians would agree that the Allies overwhelmingly won the air campaign over the famous Japanese air complex at Rabaul. Even so, this required constant air strikes against the fortress to negate it as an airbase. Total Japanese losses were something in the neighborhood of 359 aircraft from November 1943 to March 1944. For the group Aircraft-Solomon Islands at Bougainville (AIRSOLS) combat losses were 136 aircraft. Thereafter AIRSOLS continued to stage raids over the fortress, gradually destroying the antiaircraft gun positions and keeping the runways cratered. However, in spite of AIRSOLS' best efforts, the Japanese preserved over half their antiaircraft guns by moving them frequently among prepared positions dug into the ground, and at least one concrete runway was kept usable at all times.

Smaller airfields are usually not such a tough nut to crack.

Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky" gives pretty good picture of things, for those interested.

https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Sky-Air-Sou ... 081332985X

Michael John Claringbould has quite detailed series of publications about South Pacific air war. Haven't read them, but reviews are good.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by fcooke »

I think you could bombard Pearl with everything the IJN has and not shut it down. And as a previous poster mentioned, even a 2 BB drubbing of Henderson did not keep it out of action, and it was a pretty small airfield at the time.
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by Moltrey »

Pavel01:
From one (relatively) new player to another - You really need to:
1). Check your expectations baggage at the WITP:AE "door". Tactical thinking and logic breakdowns in a Grand Strategic game rarely pan out like you think they should.
2). Remind yourself every time you sit down and start up the game that you are Admiral Nimitz (more or less). You have VERY little control over outcomes once the hounds of war are released. Which, I should add, is the way it SHOULD BE.
3). Learn to accept that even with AE being the "2nd Edition", the Devs still had to make many decisions as to how detailed and accurate the game could be. Compromises were made. Some things were never finished and never will be.
4). Yes, it stinks, but realize that with all the warts it has, WITP:AE is still by far the best simulation of the Pacific War available.
5). While there are a lot of things in AE I would like to see added or completed, there is no other competition at this level of detail and immersion.

I find it a very rewarding game that requires a hefty sacrifice in time and mindset in order to appreciate fully. You can get there too, just don't let your preconceived notions ruin it for you.

"Chew, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes." - Roy Batty
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

Pavel01:
From one (relatively) new player to another - You really need to:
1). Check your expectations baggage at the WITP:AE "door". Tactical thinking and logic breakdowns in a Grand Strategic game rarely pan out like you think they should.
2). Remind yourself every time you sit down and start up the game that you are Admiral Nimitz (more or less). You have VERY little control over outcomes once the hounds of war are released. Which, I should add, is the way it SHOULD BE.
3). Learn to accept that even with AE being the "2nd Edition", the Devs still had to make many decisions as to how detailed and accurate the game could be. Compromises were made. Some things were never finished and never will be.
4). Yes, it stinks, but realize that with all the warts it has, WITP:AE is still by far the best simulation of the Pacific War available.
5). While there are a lot of things in AE I would like to see added or completed, there is no other competition at this level of detail and immersion.

I find it a very rewarding game that requires a hefty sacrifice in time and mindset in order to appreciate fully. You can get there too, just don't let your preconceived notions ruin it for you.



This is some of the best advice you could ever get.

As I guy who started wargaming on board games in the 70's it took me years to understand the structure and nuance of land combat. I had HUGE expectations regarding Combat Odds. After all, just about every wargame I had ever played had relied upon the odds to determine the combat results.

In this game, the combat results (meaning casualties taken) are determined by the organic devices of the LCUs firing back and forth at each other. The ODDS shown in the Combat Report are only calculated AFTER the firing is done and casualties are taken and is are only used to determine if forts are reduced and if retreats are forced.

Took years and years for me to fully accept.

Now, I simply love the nuances of land combat. The need to monitor and judge morale, disruption and fatigue, when to attack, when to rest. How and where to recover disablements. How to plan and execute successful invasions, especially against atolls.

All things that are grasped and mastered through repeated experimentation. You can come here for all the advice you want, but there is no substitute for logging hours of gameplay.
Hans

pavel01
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by pavel01 »

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

Pavel01:
From one (relatively) new player to another - You really need to:
1). Check your expectations baggage at the WITP:AE "door". Tactical thinking and logic breakdowns in a Grand Strategic game rarely pan out like you think they should.
2). Remind yourself every time you sit down and start up the game that you are Admiral Nimitz (more or less). You have VERY little control over outcomes once the hounds of war are released. Which, I should add, is the way it SHOULD BE.
3). Learn to accept that even with AE being the "2nd Edition", the Devs still had to make many decisions as to how detailed and accurate the game could be. Compromises were made. Some things were never finished and never will be.
4). Yes, it stinks, but realize that with all the warts it has, WITP:AE is still by far the best simulation of the Pacific War available.
5). While there are a lot of things in AE I would like to see added or completed, there is no other competition at this level of detail and immersion.

I find it a very rewarding game that requires a hefty sacrifice in time and mindset in order to appreciate fully. You can get there too, just don't let your preconceived notions ruin it for you.


Thank you for the good advice.

Indeed, it is not an easy task when having to look at the "Grand" picture and not at single battles...

And because of that, I think that the incapacitating of the US fleet in Pearl Harbour as much as possible is quite important for Japanese chances to do well in the War....

Clearly, the main priority of the Japanese is that to capture more Resources and Oil sources as possible so as to strengthen their industry and production.... and crippling the US fleet as much as possible, would therefore buy them time to reach such a goal in Asia....

The US fleet in Hawaii, if not sufficiently damaged, could quite seriously cause problems to the Japanese expansion plans in Asia....

That is why I was trying to keep bombing Pearl Harbour also on the 8th, to make sure to damage as much as possible of the US fleet so that I could have had more time to handle the expansion in Asia....
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: pavel01

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

Pavel01:
From one (relatively) new player to another - You really need to:
1). Check your expectations baggage at the WITP:AE "door". Tactical thinking and logic breakdowns in a Grand Strategic game rarely pan out like you think they should.
2). Remind yourself every time you sit down and start up the game that you are Admiral Nimitz (more or less). You have VERY little control over outcomes once the hounds of war are released. Which, I should add, is the way it SHOULD BE.
3). Learn to accept that even with AE being the "2nd Edition", the Devs still had to make many decisions as to how detailed and accurate the game could be. Compromises were made. Some things were never finished and never will be.
4). Yes, it stinks, but realize that with all the warts it has, WITP:AE is still by far the best simulation of the Pacific War available.
5). While there are a lot of things in AE I would like to see added or completed, there is no other competition at this level of detail and immersion.

I find it a very rewarding game that requires a hefty sacrifice in time and mindset in order to appreciate fully. You can get there too, just don't let your preconceived notions ruin it for you.


Thank you for the good advice.

Indeed, it is not an easy task when having to look at the "Grand" picture and not at single battles...

And because of that, I think that the incapacitating of the US fleet in Pearl Harbour as much as possible is quite important for Japanese chances to do well in the War....

Clearly, the main priority of the Japanese is that to capture more Resources and Oil sources as possible so as to strengthen their industry and production.... and crippling the US fleet as much as possible, would therefore buy them time to reach such a goal in Asia....

The US fleet in Hawaii, if not sufficiently damaged, could quite seriously cause problems to the Japanese expansion plans in Asia....

That is why I was trying to keep bombing Pearl Harbour also on the 8th, to make sure to damage as much as possible of the US fleet so that I could have had more time to handle the expansion in Asia....
In the game, all kinds of resources are abstracted into the term Resources. There are plenty of Resources close to Japan on Hokkaido, Sakhalin and from Asia via Korea. There is no need to ship resources from the DEI/SRA. IRL, things like latex sap for rubber and bauxite ore for aluminum were not available anywhere near Japan so those kinds of resources were shipped in from a distance. But you don't need to waste the fuel hauling Resources long distances in the game.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by rustysi »

The US fleet in Hawaii, if not sufficiently damaged, could quite seriously cause problems to the Japanese expansion plans in Asia....

Wrong. The only vessels that could and did hinder Japan were not even at home (Pearl) when the Japanese came a knockin'. The CV's were not there, the old BB's that were there were not going to have much influence.
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rustysi
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by rustysi »

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

Pavel01:
From one (relatively) new player to another - You really need to:
1). Check your expectations baggage at the WITP:AE "door". Tactical thinking and logic breakdowns in a Grand Strategic game rarely pan out like you think they should.
2). Remind yourself every time you sit down and start up the game that you are Admiral Nimitz (more or less). You have VERY little control over outcomes once the hounds of war are released. Which, I should add, is the way it SHOULD BE.
3). Learn to accept that even with AE being the "2nd Edition", the Devs still had to make many decisions as to how detailed and accurate the game could be. Compromises were made. Some things were never finished and never will be.
4). Yes, it stinks, but realize that with all the warts it has, WITP:AE is still by far the best simulation of the Pacific War available.
5). While there are a lot of things in AE I would like to see added or completed, there is no other competition at this level of detail and immersion.

I find it a very rewarding game that requires a hefty sacrifice in time and mindset in order to appreciate fully. You can get there too, just don't let your preconceived notions ruin it for you.

+1!!!!
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: rustysi
The US fleet in Hawaii, if not sufficiently damaged, could quite seriously cause problems to the Japanese expansion plans in Asia....

Wrong. The only vessels that could and did hinder Japan were not even at home (Pearl) when the Japanese came a knockin'. The CV's were not there, the old BB's that were there were not going to have much influence.

Rustysi is right.

For that reason, some people even switch PH attack to hit Manila and it's considerable submarine fleet. Those old BBs in PH would not cause any harm to IJN as long as Kido Butai is intact.

Sinking those BBs is good points-wise, but strategically they become important only after USN has air superiority and is starting to do amphibious assaults. Then those old slow BBs become great both in Bombardment TFs and in Amphibious TF soaking up Japanese coastal defence fire.

Main disadvantage of those old BBs is the speed. They just cannot keep up with CVs, which need at least 28 knot capable BB. Thus I like to save Prince of Wales and use it as "flak ship", best in that role before No/SoDak fast BBs arrive.
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by kbfchicago »

Coming to the party late after lots of good advice and reference points. In a quick scroll I did not see anyone mention LCAP. I know I use it frequently and have done so on 8 Dec to help cover a potential 2nd strike. Jump a Sqdn or two (more likely remnants there of after the 1st strike) to one of the undamaged fields on nearby islands and run them as LCAP over Pearl... no airfield limitations. Note if you do this with a "long" haul to a new field later in the game the transfer time delay will keep your LCAP from being in place until the 2nd strike phase of the next day (or in extreme cases the next day) and miss the first strike phase of the day.

If you split your sqdn to do this be sure to check and update the leader of the newly formed remnant so you don't get a low ability/initiative leader who will cower in the bunkers vs. taking to the air when needed.
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by fcooke »

Going after PH for a second day is going to be costly. AA is more effective and as mentioned before the available US fighters can come up for a fight, the US subs will come hunting, and perhaps the PT boats as well. Not worth it IMO.
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Going after PH for a second day is going to be costly. AA is more effective and as mentioned before the available US fighters can come up for a fight, the US subs will come hunting, and perhaps the PT boats as well. Not worth it IMO.


Not just PTs.

I sortie every last fighting ship that can still fight on day 2.

I also put every last ship not too heavily damaged into TFs on turn 2 so a port strike will mostly whiff.
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RE: 102 Runway Hits.... shouldn't it stop planes from taking off ?

Post by Lobster »

Historically some fighters were dispersed to outlying airfields. Not everything was at Pearl. [;)]
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