Operational losses and pilot EXP

[Dreamslayer]

Pilot experience. Could it be one of the major factor of these high operational losses?

Look at LW air-groups. In overall they has good EXP about 80. But what about some pilots in the groups?
While adding 3 new fighter squadrons of Black Sea Fleet Air Command for my own scenario I found that new air-group when building in the editor adds randomly generated pilots. These pilots getting EXP of the group BUT with random factor. In my case I created squadron that had 60 EXP but pilots there was generated with EXP from 43 to 77.
Similar dispersion you can see in LW groups too. Ok I'm not checked every unit, of course, but I found in one German air-group pilot that has EXP 52.
So if EXP affects Op losses then better to change this pilot generating mechanics. Would be better to have pilot EXP with less dispersion because current state its too much.

[Cavalry Corp]

I think in AE when you make a unit with higher exp the variation is less - I think ?? I had a unit set at 80 in AE and it comes on map as around 75-83 But there is a random number every time you start a game - I have no idea if that is in here or not but it is in AE.

[NotOneStepBack]

Operational losses right now are so ridiculous I'm not even flying ground support. I really think the devs need to take a look at it.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Operational losses right now are so ridiculous I'm not even flying ground support. I really think the devs need to take a look at it.

I really havent had a problem with GS losses. It boils down to a lot of things and 41 is not good for Germanys air if you tax it wrong. I have been using GS on my Bobo game and dont have a problem.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Operational losses right now are so ridiculous I'm not even flying ground support. I really think the devs need to take a look at it.

I really havent had a problem with GS losses. It boils down to a lot of things and 41 is not good for Germanys air if you tax it wrong. I have been using GS on my Bobo game and dont have a problem.

Or, I could have the same problem you do and I am too dumb to realize it

[56ajax]

You have to reduce the distant flown. Check that you choose air units that are as close as possible to the Staging Airbase, that the Staging airbase is close to your target. Do not do what i did, had an air unit flying half way across the map....

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

You have to reduce the distant flown. Check that you choose air units that are as close as possible to the Staging Airbase, that the Staging airbase is close to your target. Do not do what i did, had an air unit flying half way across the map....

Ya, that is what I do already and OPS losses went way down for sure. Good advice 56ajax

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Operational losses right now are so ridiculous I'm not even flying ground support. I really think the devs need to take a look at it.

I really don't think this statement is right.

Here is the t11 air loss table, I'm using the LW constantly for GS (in both phases), some recon, naval patrols and GA

game is HtH

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Operational losses right now are so ridiculous I'm not even flying ground support. I really think the devs need to take a look at it.

Compared to what?, if you mean actual history or in game doing things differently and getting widely different outcome?.


LW had 2,093 aircraft destroyed to all causes, from June 22 to December 6 1941, on the Eastern front (758 bombers, 568 fighters, 170 dive-bombers, 330 reconnaissance, and 267 miscellanous), another 1,362 (including 473 bombers and 413 fighters) damaged (again, to all causes, inc 124 on the ground, note Loki game has no ground losses)

-Combat losses (due to enemy activity or unknown reasons) from 22/6 to 31/12/41: 1,769 aircraft write offs (60% or more damage) and 1,113 damaged (10-59%)

From Bergström/Mikhailov "Black Cross-Red Star" vol2


Comparing historical over 6 months
FTR/FB 568
TB 170
LB 758
Recon 330

Total 1826

So if we compare to loki t11 game over c3 months:
FTR 29
FB 517
TB 239
LB 491
Recon 321

Total 1597

[Dreamslayer]

Look.
Currently Op losses are too high, imho. Maybe its overall stats looks not so bad but the devil as always in the details. On the start LW suffers heavy Op losses without reasons - too high % when there was no any combat activity from the enemy. You can have no any air-combats, no AA-fire, nice weather, "resort schedule" etc and after it you will get too high % of Op losses. And you only reduce it by number of sorties - like only 1 day for air recon (with minimal a/c for recon airfields).
So thats why I can explain it by this "EXP pilot case". Some groups has pilots with too low EXP - maybe exactly it leads to this "Op losses anomaly".

For exampple - http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luf ... oss41.html
"Losses of long-range reconnaissance Luftwaffe on Eastern Front in 1941" (Aleksandr Zablotskiy, Roman Larintsev)
From the data for 22-30 June (I think we can count this time period as the highest peak of LW activity on Eastern Front) . There are 31 cases and partially not a full data about each case. But we can see that there are 3 planes was destroyed (100% German loss rating) and others 3 was written-off (60-99%) without combat activity . All others cases are low damage (repairable) or because of combat activity (also some cases has not full data but I guess most of them was over enemy territory.

5 23.06.41 2.(F)/11 2 F Lyck (Emergency landing) Do17P 4123 60 %
8 24.06.41 3.(F)/11 Н F AF Melets (Emergency landing) Ju88A-5 0692 60 %
16 26.06.41 2.(F)/11 Н F Belostok (Ignition of fuel) Do17 3594 100 %
19 27.06.41 3.(F)/33 Н F (Polotsk - Pskov) (Forced landing) Ju88A-5 0740 (8H+FL) 100 %
21 29.06.41 1.(F)/124 5 F AF Kirkenes (Take-off accident) Do215B 0073 60 %
26 29.06.41 5.(F)/122 1 F AF Jurgenfelde (Take-off accident) Ju88A-5 0416 100 %

In the game would be nice to see more details about how exactly a/c was destroyed/damaged. We can enjoy current air-combat log mechanics but others air-accidents are too unclear.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Look.
Currently Op losses are too high, imho. Maybe its overall stats looks not so bad but the devil as always in the details. On the start LW suffers heavy Op losses without reasons - too high % when there was no any combat activity from the enemy. You can have no any air-combats, no AA-fire, nice weather, "resort schedule" etc and after it you will get too high % of Op losses. And you only reduce it by number of sorties - like only 1 day for air recon (with minimal a/c for recon airfields).
So thats why I can explain it by this "EXP pilot case". Some groups has pilots with too low EXP - maybe exactly it leads to this "Op losses anomaly".

For exampple - http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luf ... oss41.html
"Losses of long-range reconnaissance Luftwaffe on Eastern Front in 1941" (Aleksandr Zablotskiy, Roman Larintsev)
From the data for 22-30 June (I think we can count this time period as the highest peak of LW activity on Eastern Front) . There are 31 cases and partially not a full data about each case. But we can see that there are 3 planes was destroyed (100% German loss rating) and others 3 was written-off (60-99%) without combat activity . All others cases are low damage (repairable) or because of combat activity (also some cases has not full data but I guess most of them was over enemy territory.

5 23.06.41 2.(F)/11 2 F Lyck (Emergency landing) Do17P 4123 60 %
8 24.06.41 3.(F)/11 Н F AF Melets (Emergency landing) Ju88A-5 0692 60 %
16 26.06.41 2.(F)/11 Н F Belostok (Ignition of fuel) Do17 3594 100 %
19 27.06.41 3.(F)/33 Н F (Polotsk - Pskov) (Forced landing) Ju88A-5 0740 (8H+FL) 100 %
21 29.06.41 1.(F)/124 5 F AF Kirkenes (Take-off accident) Do215B 0073 60 %
26 29.06.41 5.(F)/122 1 F AF Jurgenfelde (Take-off accident) Ju88A-5 0416 100 %

In the game would be nice to see more details about how exactly a/c was destroyed/damaged. We can enjoy current air-combat log mechanics but others air-accidents are too unclear.

Dont forget 40% of Axis lost airframes in the East were non combat related.

[NotOneStepBack]

Let's say on average the LW has ~3K planes that are operational when you are running Barbarossa. I'm losing close to 200 a week, of which 50 - 100 are operational at times. This number has gone down a little bit, but it still seems high.

If we're considering "operational" losses aircraft that either crashed due to pilot error, didn't get off the ground due to logistics issues, or just aircraft that don't work.....we're talking about 2% (at the low end) of the LW being lost per week due to issues they can control. These are weeks where we're not even including combat. At this point in the war they also pretty much had air superiority as the I-16 was zero threat to the LW.

Does that seem right?

The LW can replace something like 150 pilots a turn and I can't run any operations then without losing pilots to a point the entire LW would be manned by conscripts.

Many of these are also recon aircraft. Something seems off. A recon plane or two flying into enemy territory isn't really going to run into any AA issues. They're also usually flying too fast or too high to be intercepted early in the war...yet they seem to be dropping like flies in my game where I have to rely on ground recon. Why would recon be subjected to operational losses at all? They take off from any airfield if the plane is operational, climb to 20k feet in friendly territory and then just scan/take pictures. Usually unescorted even.

[NotOneStepBack]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Look.
Currently Op losses are too high, imho. Maybe its overall stats looks not so bad but the devil as always in the details. On the start LW suffers heavy Op losses without reasons - too high % when there was no any combat activity from the enemy. You can have no any air-combats, no AA-fire, nice weather, "resort schedule" etc and after it you will get too high % of Op losses. And you only reduce it by number of sorties - like only 1 day for air recon (with minimal a/c for recon airfields).
So thats why I can explain it by this "EXP pilot case". Some groups has pilots with too low EXP - maybe exactly it leads to this "Op losses anomaly".

For exampple - http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luf ... oss41.html
"Losses of long-range reconnaissance Luftwaffe on Eastern Front in 1941" (Aleksandr Zablotskiy, Roman Larintsev)
From the data for 22-30 June (I think we can count this time period as the highest peak of LW activity on Eastern Front) . There are 31 cases and partially not a full data about each case. But we can see that there are 3 planes was destroyed (100% German loss rating) and others 3 was written-off (60-99%) without combat activity . All others cases are low damage (repairable) or because of combat activity (also some cases has not full data but I guess most of them was over enemy territory.

5 23.06.41 2.(F)/11 2 F Lyck (Emergency landing) Do17P 4123 60 %
8 24.06.41 3.(F)/11 Н F AF Melets (Emergency landing) Ju88A-5 0692 60 %
16 26.06.41 2.(F)/11 Н F Belostok (Ignition of fuel) Do17 3594 100 %
19 27.06.41 3.(F)/33 Н F (Polotsk - Pskov) (Forced landing) Ju88A-5 0740 (8H+FL) 100 %
21 29.06.41 1.(F)/124 5 F AF Kirkenes (Take-off accident) Do215B 0073 60 %
26 29.06.41 5.(F)/122 1 F AF Jurgenfelde (Take-off accident) Ju88A-5 0416 100 %

In the game would be nice to see more details about how exactly a/c was destroyed/damaged. We can enjoy current air-combat log mechanics but others air-accidents are too unclear.

This is my point exactly.

[Rexzapper]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
Look.
Currently Op losses are too high, imho. Maybe its overall stats looks not so bad but the devil as always in the details. On the start LW suffers heavy Op losses without reasons - too high % when there was no any combat activity from the enemy. You can have no any air-combats, no AA-fire, nice weather, "resort schedule" etc and after it you will get too high % of Op losses. And you only reduce it by number of sorties - like only 1 day for air recon (with minimal a/c for recon airfields).
So thats why I can explain it by this "EXP pilot case". Some groups has pilots with too low EXP - maybe exactly it leads to this "Op losses anomaly".

For exampple - http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luf ... oss41.html
"Losses of long-range reconnaissance Luftwaffe on Eastern Front in 1941" (Aleksandr Zablotskiy, Roman Larintsev)
From the data for 22-30 June (I think we can count this time period as the highest peak of LW activity on Eastern Front) . There are 31 cases and partially not a full data about each case. But we can see that there are 3 planes was destroyed (100% German loss rating) and others 3 was written-off (60-99%) without combat activity . All others cases are low damage (repairable) or because of combat activity (also some cases has not full data but I guess most of them was over enemy territory.

5 23.06.41 2.(F)/11 2 F Lyck (Emergency landing) Do17P 4123 60 %
8 24.06.41 3.(F)/11 Н F AF Melets (Emergency landing) Ju88A-5 0692 60 %
16 26.06.41 2.(F)/11 Н F Belostok (Ignition of fuel) Do17 3594 100 %
19 27.06.41 3.(F)/33 Н F (Polotsk - Pskov) (Forced landing) Ju88A-5 0740 (8H+FL) 100 %
21 29.06.41 1.(F)/124 5 F AF Kirkenes (Take-off accident) Do215B 0073 60 %
26 29.06.41 5.(F)/122 1 F AF Jurgenfelde (Take-off accident) Ju88A-5 0416 100 %

In the game would be nice to see more details about how exactly a/c was destroyed/damaged. We can enjoy current air-combat log mechanics but others air-accidents are too unclear.

+1

[Sly]

I agree with the opinion that the operational losses with the high experience of luftwatte pilots and good weather are too high. Especially the number of pilots killed. This loss is felt the most. Fighters in particular have a short range and therefore suffer losses regardless of the pilot training level. In practice, in most GS missions I switch them to rest. There is a rule: each mission is some operational loss, no losses are an exception (of course, I do not count combat losses)
This is a problem in the game because such high operational losses reduce playability. Better not to move anything, fly as little as possible and turn off the GS as often as possible. For this, the best way to play is H2H, like looki.

[Kosciuszko]

I think especially the amount of aircrew killed is a little high for both sides. It seems to be almost 100%.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Let's say on average the LW has ~3K planes that are operational when you are running Barbarossa. I'm losing close to 200 a week, of which 50 - 100 are operational at times. This number has gone down a little bit, but it still seems high.

If we're considering "operational" losses aircraft that either crashed due to pilot error, didn't get off the ground due to logistics issues, or just aircraft that don't work.....we're talking about 2% (at the low end) of the LW being lost per week due to issues they can control. These are weeks where we're not even including combat. At this point in the war they also pretty much had air superiority as the I-16 was zero threat to the LW.

Does that seem right?

Again, compared to what?, history or different ways to fight in the air.

By end of 41 c2200 airframes were written off in the East, so your game is also losing well over twice the historical number.

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack
The LW can replace something like 150 pilots a turn and I can't run any operations then without losing pilots to a point the entire LW would be manned by conscripts.

Does it stay at 150 a week till end of year/, if so you get 4000 for 41.

Boog, Horst. Die deutsche Luftwaffenführung 1935-1945: Führungsprobleme, Spitzengliederung, Generalstabsausbildung

Official Historian of the LW at the Bundeswehr.

Pilot output from training schools, most archival data was lost.
1942, 14,805 ( So, thats 284 a week.)
1943, 29,730 ( So thats 571 a week.)

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Pilot experience. Could it be one of the major factor of these high operational losses?

Look at LW air-groups. In overall they has good EXP about 80. But what about some pilots in the groups?
While adding 3 new fighter squadrons of Black Sea Fleet Air Command for my own scenario I found that new air-group when building in the editor adds randomly generated pilots. These pilots getting EXP of the group BUT with random factor. In my case I created squadron that had 60 EXP but pilots there was generated with EXP from 43 to 77.
Similar dispersion you can see in LW groups too. Ok I'm not checked every unit, of course, but I found in one German air-group pilot that has EXP 52.
So if EXP affects Op losses then better to change this pilot generating mechanics. Would be better to have pilot EXP with less dispersion because current state its too much.

lets take a step back, and think about what was being simulated, the LW has more exp pilots and high pilot loss rates are reducing the formations abilities. Given the LW was experiencing almost 100% loss rates a year, 15-17% did not even survive basic training, then its always to be expected your going to be hard put to keep skill levels up as an average.

How are aces modelled in game?, if kills are for immersion only, then they have very little impact, otoh a Uber ace kill rate per sortie, say E Hartman was a kill every 4 sorties, while the great bulk of normal sorties never saw a kill.

So, lets use a formation of 300 rubbish pilots whose average kill per sortie rate is poor, thats 300*0.003=a single kill, What happens if it has 2 Aces with a higher kill rate, the average is now 298*0.003= a single kill, plus 2 Uber Ace 2*0.5= a single kill, or lets say 5 lesser Aces at 0.25=1.25 kills, you can assign any value you like balance purposes for Aces, the Germans had over a 100 pilots with 100+ kills, thast 10k of kills from 100 aces or around 10% of all allied air combat losses from 100 aces, so Aces level can be granulated, you can easily see how the relatively small number of Aces can have a massive outcome effect on kill rates, and the loss of these is what would be the problem for the player, not the loss of the many which is almost unavoidable.


I found this interesting.
SU sorties by year
1941 - 459 221
1942 - 852 691
1943 - 885 416
1944 - 993 050
1945 till wars end. 617 758

1941 - 259686 day and 9879 night
1942 - 365060 day and 206070 night
1943 - 474343 day and 203514 night
1944 - 630468 day and 186579 night
1945 - 448855 day and 120307 night

http://stsokol.ru/vvs_tsifra/index.html

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: Hanny
By end of 41 c2200 airframes were written off in the East, so your game is also losing well over twice the historical number.

For sure to the end of 1941 there was such numbers. But this statisctics already includes time periods with bad weather or when air-groups/pilots accumulated fatigue or when there was issues for a/c service. And its in overall on such time distance its looks fine. But when in the game air-groups has all good factors and suffers high operational losses its very questionable case.

Another example.
"Ju.87 losses on Eastern Front in 1941" (Aleksandr Zablotskiy, Roman Larintsev) - http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/ju8 ... loss1.html
Again 22-30 June:

4 23.06.41 3./StG77 2 F Biala-Podliaska Crashed Ju87B-1 305 100
16 25.06.41 III./StG1 2 F bei Plociczwo Forced landing Ju87R-2 5998 70
17 25.06.41 II./StG1 2 F Iwanowce Crashed Ju87R-2 6219 (6G+IR) 100
19 26.06.41 1./StG77 2 F Volkovysk Forced landing Ju87В-1 5151 100
20 26.06.41 III./StG77 2 F Pruzhany Emergency landing Ju87B-2 5631 60

From 26 cases only 3 Ju-87 was destroyed (damage 100%) and 2 leaded to written-off (damage 60-99%) in non-combat incidents. Others was or combat (like AA fire/ fighter attack) or it was repairable damage (less than 60%) or there are non full data about the case (there are 6 such cases and looks like all of them was over enemy territory, so its more likely that it was combat incidents).

Now try to use your Ju-87 groups with similar intensity as how it was happening historically.

I want to believe that such high Op losses in the game when air-groups has all good factors caused by too LOW EXP of some pilots (because they randomly got so low EXP while generating) in the groups. Because if not (or not only) then something really wrong with Op losses mechanics in the game.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

ORIGINAL: Hanny
By end of 41 c2200 airframes were written off in the East, so your game is also losing well over twice the historical number.

For sure to the end of 1941 there was such numbers. But this statisctics already includes time periods with bad weather or when air-groups/pilots accumulated fatigue or when there was issues for a/c service. And its in overall on such time distance its looks fine. But when in the game air-groups has all good factors and suffers high operational losses its very questionable case.

Another example.
"Ju.87 losses on Eastern Front in 1941" (Aleksandr Zablotskiy, Roman Larintsev) - http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/ju8 ... loss1.html
Again 22-30 June:

4 23.06.41 3./StG77 2 F Biala-Podliaska Crashed Ju87B-1 305 100
16 25.06.41 III./StG1 2 F bei Plociczwo Forced landing Ju87R-2 5998 70
17 25.06.41 II./StG1 2 F Iwanowce Crashed Ju87R-2 6219 (6G+IR) 100
19 26.06.41 1./StG77 2 F Volkovysk Forced landing Ju87В-1 5151 100
20 26.06.41 III./StG77 2 F Pruzhany Emergency landing Ju87B-2 5631 60

From 26 cases only 3 Ju-87 was destroyed (damage 100%) and 2 leaded to written-off (damage 60-99%) in non-combat incidents. Others was or combat (like AA fire/ fighter attack) or it was repairable damage (less than 60%) or there are non full data about the case (there are 6 such cases and looks like all of them was over enemy territory, so its more likely that it was combat incidents).

Now try to use your Ju-87 groups with similar intensity as how it was happening historically.

I want to believe that such high Op losses in the game when air-groups has all good factors caused by too LOW EXP of some pilots (because they randomly got so low EXP while generating) in the groups. Because if not (or not only) then something really wrong with Op losses mechanics in the game.

For me the principle problem is that there is one type of fuel, rather than AVGAS and MOGAS, its simply to easy to conduct Air warfare at a tempo outside of historical norms which may be increasing loss rates outside of what was expected because both ground and air are using the same fuel and can over achieve on ground or air.