Taming the Tiger or Slaying the Bear......loki100 (Axis) vs Speedy (SU)

[Speedysteve]

Center:

Following the Nazi encirclement of Smolensk I ordered my men to hold firm. Not 1 step back......unless I order it[;)]

I ordered 2 local counter attacks against an enemy Infantry and Tank Rgt. Both failed. Again the men blame the quality of the vodka....I blame something else.

VVS did support our 2 counter attacks as an FYI.

I have to be careful not to give too much away to any Axis spies but here's a view of the current situation:

[Speedysteve]

South:

My Front Commanders are concerned that the wide open expanse and terrain is making it impossible for them to hold the Axis mobile formations at bay. I ordered my men to hold firm along the Dnepr and to not abandon Kiev!

I ordered local counter-attacks against 4 of the most extended Axis Mobile Rgt's near Kirovograd. 2 succeeded and 2 failed. My men reported destroying 23 tractors....I examined the report further and it occurred to me they were trying to humour me by describing the enemy tanks as Tractors compared to our Glorious Behemoths. I sent a terse reply to Ryabyshev (38th Army commander) that "if he's just fighting tractors why isn't he in Berlin yet?"....Idiot.....I think whilst downing a vodka shot.

[Speedysteve]

Here's an updated view on our total air losses to date. It's going to take me a long time to sort out this mess of an Airforce me thinks.....more vodka consumed:

[Speedysteve]

I hope readers understand that unlike my Axis counter-part (who can show his array of forces as it makes little difference for me to know that (largely)) I am unable show area/front wide views of my forces as the enemy could use that to his advantage.

I've learnt a lot in these first 2 months of war and would do several things different next time Germany attacks. After Turn 10 I'll grade myself on the various areas.

Also to add to Herr Loki's comment - yes I have been largely trying to avoid enemy Infantry Divisions to date. They can easily take me out and I've taken the approach to focus on enemy Tank units which are more likely to be in exposed positions. My theory being with these depleted it will limit the chance of mass deep breakthroughs in due course.

[loki100]

T7 – 3 August 1941

Have that horrible feeling I am running out of summer – ok I live in the north of Scotland where summer is a variable event, but I basically have 9 turns till it gets very wet.

Anyway, usual review of the bad things the Soviets did. By far the worst was that they made me forget to actually build a depot at Pskov. I took the damn place 3 turns ago, hooked it to the rail network last turn and was wondering why the connecting rail line was still green. I'd suggest everyone ignores anything I say about logistics from now on.

More to the point, challenged my naval control off Odessa and a fair number of attacks.



That was enough to break my blockade off Odessa and looking at the air losses it wasn't that expensive for them. I'll reinstate it in my turn but the question is whether or not just to clear the city, anything that evacuates is going to take heavy losses.



Well that was fairly expensive but it looks like only 2 divisions actually escaped and they are in a mess. Also it means that I have the rail repaired into the port so can hopefully push this rail branch up to the Dnepr bend before the Rumanian FBD converts to its component parts.



Since I started in the south, may as well stay there. Took E Kiev, I'll complete surrounding the city and then probably attack next turn – much the same logic as at Odessa as to whether a delay is really worth it.

Infantry now well placed to ease the load on 1 PG, one corps forced the Dnepr – while I expect a response, I suspect that will start the Soviets retreating back towards Kharkov.

Using the industry map mode on this sector so that I set up my depots on existing rail yards. Don't want to pay the supply cost of creating new ones unless I have no choice – and with a single under-used rail line there is little need to boost depot processing capacity.



4A has reached Gomel. Smolensk fell on the second assault, ended up using most of 9 Army but worth it to clear that out of the way (no time bonus though).



Spent an age trying to think of what to do on this sector. I could commit 2 PG to the southern portion and really go for Bryansk-Orel. In the end I had infantry on the line facing Yelnya, so did the usual model of commit 2 Pzr corps into the gap and hold one back.

Managed a decent breakthrough, as there were a lot of the Moscow Militia formations here, most of those turned into routs and even a few shatters. That probably left the equivalent of a Soviet army as a smouldering ruin.

I'm not sure its a good idea to let these formations get into combat. They tend to die quickly and take their manpower with them. Better to dig trenches and let them convert to normal RD in early 1942.



All a bit fragmented for AGN, given I have infantry arriving over the next couple of turns, couldn't see much to gain by committing my mobile formations.

Not at all sure that wandering off into the wilderness behind Velikie Luki was a good idea.



Generally, looks like the Red Army has taken on a lot of manpower, starting to encounter units that can really stand up for themselves. Hope is that they now need to fight and my infantry can help weaken these formations so I regain mobility.

Also its a finite resource till they gain their late November allocation, so in terms of front line balance of power this maybe as bad as it becomes (for a while).



A view supported by their relative lack of reserves – of course I have to find some way to regain mobility.



Losses – mine include nearly 4,000 in the attacks on Odessa and Smolensk but even so are slowly increasing. For a turn with relatively few pockets, quite surprised to see Soviet permanent losses at 100k.

At one level, manpower losses don't worry me too much – except it is so hard to bring up replacements.



Airwar is still fairly low key. Notable that the Soviets are clearly hiding their modern fighters and trying to fill the skies with their I-series planes.



VP. Not going to meet the October conditions but should be safe in terms of the HWM test.

Of what is in immediate range – I'll get the time bonus for Kiev (that will fall in the next 2 turns), Dnepropetrovsk probably not, too early to assess the T15-T18 set.



Keeping the HQ under their CP limits (small excess in 6A)

[loki100]

T8 – 10 August 1941

Oddly the Soviets were relatively well behaved that turn, but with some important exceptions. I could have really done without losing those 45 tanks – its about 2 weeks worth of production.

Also it seems that the Soviets have abandoned their bias against Rumanians and are now taking it all out on Hungarians.



At least Pskov is now working, it'll take at least one more turn for it to reach capacity.



Soviet Union garrison, almost at 100%, I'll add some of those Rumanian cavalry brigades as they are less use now – not least the arriving Italians provide a recon force for the southern Ukrainian advance.



Extras are 3 weak Hungarian units that add very little on map.



First turn in some time that I set up a number of AD. Basically using GA-unit on known front line strong points where I plan to advance and more targetted GS allocations.

That led to the first view of the road to Leningrad, thats a lot of stuff (I'm sure there are more technical terms available).



So main effort by AGN. Used the infantry to push back some of the stronger Soviet units – mostly generating a very nice loss ratio so those units will take some refitting. LVI Pzr then attacked along the line of the Volkhov – at the very least I want to cut the dual rail from Moscow. XXXI Pzr sat in reserve.

Next turn most of 18A will be in contact.



My wanderings in the wilds of Kalinin oblast. Fairly clear this wasn't such a good idea but found a militia division in the front line so managed a useful breakthrough for not much effort.

LVII Pzr corps now reports to PG4 as it is operating with 16A (also helped reduce the CP load on AGC).

Velikie Luki is incorporated into the depot network and that will help a little.



Annoying held result at Spas-Demyansk. Used infantry to make some gains (& a lot of routs) towards Vyazma, one Pzr Corp committed directly east, other 2 (& a lot of infantry) resting.

On a few sectors simply attacked with infantry looking for routs or shatters. Really anything to burn off the recent build up in Soviet numbers.

Not shown but Gomel captured – not exactly going very fast here but with AGS now over the Dnepr any Soviet commitment becomes very vulnerable.



Ukraine suddenly opened up, Kiev is isolated and should fall next turn. Have a fresh 100 CPP corps nearby just for this task. 6A over the river and I'll advance as I can – as above this will yield Gomel-Chernigov by default, The Pzr corps north of the river had the turn off.



More important/unexpected was being able to make a pocket on the Bug mostly with the Rumanians – would normally be risky given how fragile these are but here any attempt to seriously intervene will just escalate the losses. Most of 11A resting after Odessa but some fresh formations forced the Bug just north of Nikolaev.

17A has scarcely fired a shot so with some care most of its infantry are 90+CPP. Used infantry from 4 PG to break a Soviet screen south of the Dnepr and was able to drive 2 Pzr corps into the gap. Some of the routed armour there were clearly those powerful formations that start in Moldavia so will be nice to get them off the OOB.

Clearly the 'pocket' at Kirovograd is not designed to hold but the infantry are vulnerable or may have to pull south – if so the direct route to Stalino may be weakly held.



Losses – again for a turn with no pockets, Soviet losses over 120,000. My tank losses are becoming a real source of concern – I effectively have 2 Pzr divisions out of use due to a lack of armour.



Air losses fairly high but that was by deliberate choice. My view is come the autumn, the LB in particular are of little value (range+poor weather=ops losses) so if I see the need, I'll use them up.



OOB – sticking to the air issue, a lot is allocated to L1 to support the Leningrad operation. So far only limited Soviet fighters but I'll bring more of my own if I do manage to collapse the Luga position.



Army supply position – only 6A in a real problem and that is not too bad.

Soviets have kindly donated me 11,700 trucks.



So while the truck/unit ratio starting to fray (& my pool is empty) overall not a bad situation.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

The more I look at this and see the situation in my game I believe this is the way to go with some of the I-series planes you reference below for the Soviets. In some situations you may not have a choice in using the new planes everywhere for the Soviets.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

The more I look at this and see the situation in my game I believe this is the way to go with some of the I-series planes you reference below for the Soviets. In some situations you may not have a choice in using the new planes everywhere for the Soviets.
...

aye, I think its a mistake for the Soviets to race to set aside the I-series stuff. It absorbs axis fighters at the worst (& given the skill disparity a better or worse plane doesn't make that much difference), if you get lucky and catch un/under-escorted bombers they can do decent damage.

The only advantage the VVS potentially has in 1941 is numbers and to ignore the I-planes mean you cede even that advantage

[M60A3TTS]

I'll disagree, there's no clear cut answer that says using the I-Types provides superior results.

Here are my results, same time frame, HvH, holding out the I-Types. The results were no worse than yours.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I'll disagree, there's no clear cut answer that says using the I-Types provides superior results.

Here are my results, same time frame, HvH, holding out the I-Types. The results were no worse than yours.

...

weeeellll [:)]

I'd suggest you've handled the VVS very differently to Comrade S (and that is not a comment re good/bad just about approach). Your flak and operational losses suggest you've been much more willing to engage with ground units directly and done a better job sidestepping the axis fighters?

its interesting there isn't a vast difference in the totals (though given the nature of T1 prob not such a surprise) but the pattern of where the relative losses have fallen is both interestng and rather different

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I'll disagree, there's no clear cut answer that says using the I-Types provides superior results.

Here are my results, same time frame, HvH, holding out the I-Types. The results were no worse than yours.

...

weeeellll [:)]

I'd suggest you've handled the VVS very differently to Comrade S (and that is not a comment re good/bad just about approach). Your flak and operational losses suggest you've been much more willing to engage with ground units directly and done a better job sidestepping the axis fighters?

its interesting there isn't a vast difference in the totals (though given the nature of T1 prob not such a surprise) but the pattern of where the relative losses have fallen is both interestng and rather different

As a German I would press a Soviet only flying new Models. I am sure, after seeing the Soviet side of things, I can put a good damper on anyone doing a pure new air model Soviet setup as a German player and wishes to engage in air battles.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I'll disagree, there's no clear cut answer that says using the I-Types provides superior results.

Here are my results, same time frame, HvH, holding out the I-Types. The results were no worse than yours.

...

weeeellll [:)]

I'd suggest you've handled the VVS very differently to Comrade S (and that is not a comment re good/bad just about approach). Your flak and operational losses suggest you've been much more willing to engage with ground units directly and done a better job sidestepping the axis fighters?

its interesting there isn't a vast difference in the totals (though given the nature of T1 prob not such a surprise) but the pattern of where the relative losses have fallen is both interestng and rather different

As a German I would press a Soviet only flying new Models. I am sure, after seeing the Soviet side of things, I can put a good damper on anyone doing a pure new air model Soviet setup as a German player and wishes to engage in air battles.

But I think it is good to use some of the I-series on certain sections of the battlefields, at least until your "pool" of new fighter airplanes reaches a comfortable position.

[loki100]

I'm not convinced re the VVS, I know M60 is of the view that you can manage it to achieve a distinct qualitative improvement but I think the underlying experience levels is such that the reality is fight+die regardless.

The table below is off t11 - so the turn I've just sent back, and the loss ratio really doesn't alter according to what the VVS uses?



that turn saw a lot of GS battles and I don't think the exchange rate was bad for the Soviets - but its a brute force approach

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'm not convinced re the VVS, I know M60 is of the view that you can manage it to achieve a distinct qualitative improvement but I think the underlying experience levels is such that the reality is fight+die regardless.

The table below is off t11 - so the turn I've just sent back, and the loss ratio really doesn't alter according to what the VVS uses?



that turn saw a lot of GS battles and I don't think the exchange rate was bad for the Soviets - but its a brute force approach

I concur with you Loki. The damage table is one sided weighted towards Germany on the ratio of kill-2-kill ratio no matter what the airframe. Yes you will get a few more kills with the older model aircraft but I found the same thing in my tests so far. Hence my deviation in my Soviet game from using purely new model Soviet Fighters until at least have a nice amount saved up.

[carlkay58]

I know that I am not the expert on this, but when I played HYLA I only used the obsolete Soviet aircraft until December 41. I had sufficient fighters to put up some defense everywhere while saving the better models for my own counter offensive. HYLA can decide how that went.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I know that I am not the expert on this, but when I played HYLA I only used the obsolete Soviet aircraft until December 41. I had sufficient fighters to put up some defense everywhere while saving the better models for my own counter offensive. HYLA can decide how that went.

We never got to your offense since you were working on something for Joel. Plus I didn't read the rules for WITE2, never practiced Head to head, and only knew the opening bombing which I had practiced a few times. Thus I really didn't do much at all on the Airforce so don't believe it would be a good candidate for comparison. I know a great deal of my thinking has changed since that game roughly 2 months ago though.

[Speedysteve]

Hi Guys,

Comrade Speedyevsky reporting from my Dacha. Whilst plotting the doom of and annihilating anything with a silly black cross on it I thought I'd chime in here on the air stuff.

Now I plan to do a full self-assessment, of the war to date and my performance, on T10 of the AAR but with regard to the VVS my approach has been (bear in mind I've not played a game of either WITE1/2 in anger for about 3 years so it's been a 'suck it and see' approach and there's a few things I'd definitely do different next game as the SU):

1.) Anything with low morale (sub-40) I send back to NR
2.) Any air unit <10 planes is sent back to NR

Everything else is kept on map for use.

3.) Whenever a 1st-rate fighter pool exceeds 100 planes I upgrade an air unit based on Exp (highest experience unit gets upgraded).

4.) 1/2 times every 2 weeks I select the highest experience fighter/IL-2 unit and turn on Trained Pilots only.

5.) When assigning units from the NR to the Map I send 1st-rate fighter units (as a preference) if there's some available with at least 75% planes and over 54 experience,

Here's my current on map fighter units from the start of T1 as a snapshot:

[Speedysteve]

2:

[Speedysteve]

3:

[loki100]

T9 – 17 August 1941

Well, they did some more bad things



I mean I put a lot of effort into reaching those hexes. Actually they were fairly well behaved. Had to re-organise my recon bi-planes, sent about 25% of the AG to the reserve as restricted in order to keep the rest operational.

Kiev fell on first attack – do think that city forts are less of a barrier than you might expect. But to make them work, you have to commit a lot – certainly far more than just 3 divisions?

Well its added to my depot system now.



One reason for the 'bad things' section is it actually highlights good Soviet play, and stuff that really hurts. So here is a Pzr division that got caught up in a number of those small scale encirclements and defeats.

It looks ok, but its really short of combat elements, so the average TOE (64) masks a real problem. If it takes more heavy losses I risk a shatter or rout. Now its on a depot, reasonably far back, but I simply lack the tank replacements to repair the damage.



Anyway, not much else happened in the Ukraine. My valiant Rumanian allies celebrated a rare victory by over-running the pocket on the Bug. Elsewhere the Soviets fell back so I mostly brought the infantry up in a manner to retain CPP and let the Pzrs have a week off.



Still strong Soviet defences facing 4A – no point engaging in too much combat as my gains in the Ukraine will undermine them.

Have Vitebsk set up as the new super-depot so dismantle Minsk by moving off the FBD.

One really important issue, when you do this, make sure you don't lower capacity below the stored freight (here I have AGC), or it can't be dispatched and can be lost (which is a huge waste). So in this sort of situation, move the FBD but leave the HQ(s) that were generating the capacity bonus for at least one turn.

On the other hand, this can work really well – most of that stock of freight will now cascade to the advanced depots – if they in turn have the capacity to process.

The goal is to have Smolensk as the key depot in a few turns, but this sort of step by step approach can optimise the freight in the wider sector.




More generally, all a bit frustrating – more holds than I'd really want but also kept back a lot of the mobile formations.



Better for AGN – or more accurately, exactly what I expected. Chewing my way into their defensive lines, from experience it is really hard to refit wrecked rifle divisions so for the moment – oddly – I am in a better position to recover my losses. But clearly this can't be sustained.

Should be able to cut the main rail link in a couple of turns.



Losses – mine slowly going up, Soviets relatively high due to the Ukrainian pockets.



Air losses – at least mine are to a purpose, the GS becomes more useful to gain narrow wins or convert a retreat into a collapse.



OOB – guess the good thing is the growth of the Red Army has stalled, also they have clearly emptied the reserve.



Army supply table – problems for 6A and 9A, but these are also the most marginal in terms of the logistics network.