dlazov (Axis) vs Keitherson (Soviets) 1941 CG AAR

[dudefan]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Is this discord secret?

No. https://discord.gg/AFpYzhpsNs

That is not the discord they are talking about. With beta aar etc.

[keitherson]

ORIGINAL: dudefan

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Is this discord secret?

No. https://discord.gg/AFpYzhpsNs

That is not the discord they are talking about. With beta aar etc.

That is the discord we were talking about, and it is the one with my AAR. I was not a part of the beta, I wasn't aware there ever was a separate discord for the beta with other AARs.

[Zovs]

Turn 4 - July 13, 1941

Ground results, advances and overall thoughts

Reduced as many of the previous pockets and clamp down on the Mogilev-Podolsky pocket. Capture Pskov if possible and push slowly though to the "Land Bridge" on the road to Smolensk. In the far south push towards Odessa and prepare for the siege.

AGN
18th Army start pushing towards Tallinn.
4th Panzer needs to clear some breathing room and rest.
16th Army start lining up for the advance on Velikie Luki.

AGC
9th Army start moving in to support the 3rd Panzer.
3rd Panzer start driving towards Smolensk.
2nd Panzer support 3rd Panzer's drive towards Smolensk.
4th Army start moving in support of 2nd Panzer.
2nd Army catch up.

AGS
6th Army start heading towards Kiev.
1st Panzer start consolidating and take a rest.
17th Army finish mopping up the pockets and push east.
11th Army mop up any pockets and help the Romanians drive to Odessa.
Romanians drive to Odessa.


End of turn overview:


Highlights from this turn:

Pskov taken.


Pushing towards Smolensk.



Isolating Vinnitsa and reducing the Mogilev-Podolsky pocket.



Losses

Ground Losses:


Air Losses:


Destroyed:

[Zovs]

Turn 5 - July 20, 1941

Ground results, advances and overall thoughts
Its starting to rain this turn, turning a few hexes into mud up in the north and central sector.

AGN
18th Army continue to drive towards Tallinn.
4th Panzer refitting.
16th Army move into positions to assault towards Velikie Luki.

AGC
9th Army moving into positions to support 3rd Panzer and get ready to mop up any pockets.
3rd Panzer refitting.
2nd Panzer pausing for infantry.
4th Army moving in to support 2nd Panzer.
2nd Army moving up to the south of 4th Army.

AGS
6th Army moving into engage towards Kiev.
1st Panzer moved east.
17th Army mopping up the pockets.
11th Army crossing the Dnestr river.
Romanians moving up towards Odessa, slowly.


End of turn overview:



Highlights from this turn:

Pskov area.



Orsha and Mogilev



Mopping up in AGS.



Losses

Ground Losses:


Air Losses:


Destroyed:

[Zovs]

Turn 6 - July 27, 1941

Ground results, advances and overall thoughts

More rain and mud.

AGN
18th Army slowly moving into Estonia.
4th Panzer refitting.
16th Army slowly moving towards Pustoshka and Idritsa.

AGC
9th Army moving towards Vitebsk.
3rd Panzer driving on Smolensk.
2nd Panzer consolidating or refitting.
4th Army moved up to support 2nd Panzer.
2nd Army helping to clear the marshes.

AGS
6th Army pushing towards Kiev.
1st Panzer refitting.
17th Army refitting.
11th Army pushing towards Yuzhny Bug and into Transnistria.
Romanians advanced to Odessa.


End of turn overview:

Highlights from this turn:

18th, 4th Panzer and 16th Army sector:


16th, 9th, 3rd Panzer, 2nd Panzer and 4th Army sector:


6th Army sector:


11th Army and Romanian sector:


Losses

Ground Losses:


Air Losses:


Destroyed:



PS I just sent turn 9 across, need to gather screenshots for turns 7 and 8.

Would it be better to not scale the screenshots? Are they too grainy? Is this still of any interest to anyone?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

... Is this still of any interest to anyone?

any game report is of interest (I'd say), even if in providing progress and loss information that can be used in wider discussions

[Kosciuszko]

I, myself, followed many aars for years, never having registered on the website. You just don't know how many people appreciate yours from the back row!

[Zovs]

Thank you both. I’ll post turn 7 later today.

[Zovs]

Turn 7 - Aug 3, 1941

Ground results, advances and overall thoughts


More rain and mud.

AGN
18th Army: Pushing towards Tallinn.
4th Panzer: sends XXXIX Mot. Corps to assist 18th Army's drive on Tallinn.
16th Army: pushing towards Velikie Luki.

AGC
9th Army: at Vitebsk doorsteps and moving to relieve 3rd Panzer at Smolensk.
3rd Panzer: pausing outside of Smolensk for supplies and combat prep.
2nd Panzer: pausing in Mogilev while 9th and 4th armies come up.
4th Army: heading towards both Gomel and 2nd Panzer.
2nd Army: swamping in the marshes, slogging up and down.

AGS
6th Army: pressing towards Kiev.
1st Panzer: refitting.
17th Army: refitting.
11th Army: preparing for Odessa.

Axis Minors
Romanians: preparing for Odessa. Romanian Mountain and Cavalry corps refitting.
Hungarians:


Highlights from this turn:


Drive towards Tallinn:


Vitebsk and Smolensk area:


Kiev:


Odessa:



Losses


Ground Losses:


Air Losses:


Destroyed:

[Zovs]

Turn 8 - Aug 10, 1941

Ground results, advances and overall thoughts


Lots of rain, more light mud and mud.

AGN
18th Army: slowly push to the Narva and clean up Estonia.
4th Panzer: take Tallinn with the XXXXI Mot. Corps., rest the LVI Mot. Corps.
16th Army: continue to grind through towards Velikie Luki.

AGC
9th Army: bring up 9th Army to Smolensk and take Vitebsk.
3rd Panzer: envelop Smolensk from the north and south.
2nd Panzer: help 3rd Panzer via the southern direction.
4th Army: move up and begin engaging the stiffing Soviet line.
2nd Army: clear the Pripyat area.

AGS
6th Army: grind towards Kiev.
1st Panzer: XIV Mot. Corps conduct limited incursion near Korsun and rest the remaining Mot. Corps.
17th Army: continue to refit.
11th Army: XXX Corps along with the Romania's push east while XI and LIV Corps along with 3 Romanian Corps get ready to deal with Odessa.

Axis Minors
Romanians: as outlined above.
Hungarians: are operating between the 1st Panzer and 17th Army.
Slovakians: are operating on the southern edge of 1st Panzer.


Highlights from this turn:

Turn Summary


OOB



Tallinn captured:


AGC: 2nd & 3rd Panzer Groups:


Odessa:



Losses


Ground Losses:


Air Losses:


Destroyed:

[RedJohn]

I'm also a lurker, know that there are people reading it and are interested even if we don't comment [&o]

[Zovs]

Thanks RedJohn!

I just sent my have of turn 11 across. Almost 12 weeks into the campaign, so those numbers and what progress I make for turn 12 will be interesting, hopefully.

[Zovs]

Turn 9 - Aug 17, 1941

Ground results, advances and overall thoughts


Light mud prevails from previous rains.

AGN
18th Army: with Tallinn cleared by the XXXXI Motorized Corps the XXXVIII, XXVI and I Corps clean up Estonia.
4th Panzer: XXXXI Mot. heads back to Pskov for rest and refit and LVI Mot. shifts to the 16th Army area for the push on Velikie Luki.
16th Army: continues to grind towards Velikie Luki especially with the help from LVI Mot.

AGC
9th Army: with the capture of Vitebsk 9th Army prepares to assault Smolensk with the help of 3rd Panzer Group.
3rd Panzer: the XXXIX and LVII Mot. Corps continue to rest and refit for future operations.
2nd Panzer: all three Mot. Corps are involved in the reduction and expansion of the eastern Smolensk area.
4th Army: all Corps have now caught up and come into contact with the Russian first line of defense.
2nd Army: XXXV Corps is clearing the Pripyat area.

AGS
6th Army: is pressing towards Kiev.
1st Panzer: has encircled roughly a corps sized Russian army.
17th Army: has just about caught up to help back the Romanians.
11th Army: the XXX Corps is assisting the Romania's and both the LIV and XI Corps are preparing for the siege of Odessa.

Axis Minors
Romanians: II, IV and V Corps are preparing for the assault on Odessa (all units have maxed out support unit attachments of MG and Engineers). The III, XI, Mtn and Cav are lining up with the 17th Army and the XXX Corps for operations.
Hungarians: the Hungarian Mobile Corps is operating with both the 17th Army and XXXXVIII Mot. Corps. The 1st Hungarian is on loan with the 6th Army.
Slovakians: the 1st Mobile Bde is attached to the XIV Mot. Corps.
Italians: have just arrived and are refitting for future operations.


Highlights from this turn:

Overview


Turn Summary


OOB



AGN:


AGC:


AGS:




Losses


Ground Losses:


Air Losses:


Destroyed:

[Zovs]

Turn 10 - Aug 24, 1941

Ground results, advances and overall thoughts


Weather improves. My overall strategy was to destroy as much of the Red Army as possible and gain as much territory as possible. I believe I have failed in both of these objectives. Even with the somewhat high losses to the Soviets, Keith's OOB is still at 5.3 million and I have not taken Smolensk, Kiev, Odessa or any of the Donbas area. So there will be no German automatic victory, instead I think by January 1942 I'll will loose a sudden death (Hitler firing or shooting me or both, lol). I think I am wasting too much time in the swamps and well things just look bad for the Axis as this point. I have a feeling that Keitherson is a top notch player and I don't think I'll make it past January.

AGN
18th Army: consolidating in Estonia.
4th Panzer: XXXXI recovering CPP, LVI holding Velikie Luki in isolation and resting.
16th Army: assisting 4th Panzer.

AGC
9th Army: stalled west of Smolensk.
3rd Panzer: stalled south of Smolensk and all Motorized Corps refitting for CCPs.
2nd Panzer: stalled southeast of Smolensk and all Motorized Corps refitting for CCPs.
4th Army: closed up to the Bessel river line.
2nd Army: clearing the Pripyat.

AGS
6th Army: closed up to Kiev and resting for CCPs.
1st Panzer: keeping the lid on the three encircled rifle divisions near Kamyanka and resting for CCPs.
17th Army: closing up on the Ingul river line.
11th Army: refitting for CCPs for Odessa.

Axis Minors
Romanians: resting, refitting for CPPs.
Hungarians: working with the 1st Panzer Army.
Slovakians: 1 Slovakian is attached to the XIV Mot. Corps.
Italians: refitting for CCPs.


Highlights from this turn:

Overview


Turn Summary


OOB



AGN:


AGC:


AGS:




Losses


Ground Losses:


Air Losses:

[Zovs]

Turn 11 - Aug 31, 1941

Ground results, advances and overall thoughts


Clear weather.

AGN
18th Army: resting to gain CCPs, holding just short of the Narva.
4th Panzer: XXXXI Mot. Corps and L Corps resting and refitting in Pskov area. LVI Mot. Corps encircling Velikie Luki with 16th Army.
16th Army: working with LVI Mot. Corps on siege of Velikie Luki

AGC
9th Army: resting and standing outside of Smolensk.
3rd Panzer: XXXXIX Mot. Corps in northern section of the Smolensk area, tying in with 16th Army.
2nd Panzer: all Mot. Corps resting/refitting.
4th Army: has moved up to the MLR.
2nd Army: slowly aiming towards Chernigov.

AGS
6th Army: resting up for the siege of Kiev.
1st Panzer: locking up the pocket and refitting all Mot. Corps.
17th Army: moving into position to link up with 1st Panzer and northern section of 11th Army.
11th Army: resting.

Axis Minors
Romanians: resting.
Hungarians: resting (attached to 17th Army).
Slovakians: resting (attached to XIV Mot. Corps).
Italians: resting gaining CPPs.


Highlights from this turn:

Overview


Turn Summary


OOB



AGN:

18th Army:


16th Army:


AGC:


AGS:




Losses


Ground Losses:


Air Losses:

[Zovs]

Turn 12 - Sept. 7, 1941

Ground results, advances and overall thoughts


Weather mostly clear.

AGN
18th Army: no change from last turn.
4th Panzer: no change from last turn.
16th Army: along with the LVI Mot. Corps, have eliminated the Velikie Luki pocket and elements of 3rd Panzer Army's XXXXIX Mot. Corps have created a salient northwest of Velikie Luki.

AGC
9th Army: some minor consolidations.
3rd Panzer: LVII Mot. Corps resting.
2nd Panzer: no change from last turn.
4th Army: no change from last turn.
2nd Army: slowly slogging through the swamps towards Chernigov.

AGS
6th Army: no changes from last turn.
1st Panzer: pocket was eliminated and all Mot. Corps are resting.
17th Army: 17th Army broke through the Ingul river line.
11th Army: also assisting the 17th across the Ingul river.

Axis Minors
Romanians: no changes.
Hungarians: shifted both mobile formations in between two infantry divisions from 17th Army.
Slovakians: holding behind the Dnepr.
Italians: railing into positions.


Highlights from this turn:

Overview


Turn Summary


OOB



AGN & parts of AGC:


AGC:


AGS:




Losses


Ground Losses:


Air Losses:

[Beethoven1]

I read your AAR with interest, as well as also reading Keitherson's AAR from the Soviet side on discord.

I did a search for the word "rest" in this AAR. Here are the occasions where the word rest comes up. Here are all the instances I can see:

4th Panzer needs to clear some breathing room and rest.

1st Panzer start consolidating and take a rest.

4th Panzer: take Tallinn with the XXXXI Mot. Corps., rest the LVI Mot. Corps.

1st Panzer: XIV Mot. Corps conduct limited incursion near Korsun and rest the remaining Mot. Corps.

4th Panzer: XXXXI Mot. heads back to Pskov for rest and refit and LVI Mot. shifts to the 16th Army area for the push on Velikie Luki.

3rd Panzer: the XXXIX and LVII Mot. Corps continue to rest and refit for future operations.

4th Panzer: XXXXI recovering CPP, LVI holding Velikie Luki in isolation and resting.

6th Army: closed up to Kiev and resting for CCPs.

1st Panzer: keeping the lid on the three encircled rifle divisions near Kamyanka and resting for CCPs.

Romanians: resting, refitting for CPPs.

18th Army: resting to gain CCPs, holding just short of the Narva.

4th Panzer: XXXXI Mot. Corps and L Corps resting and refitting in Pskov area. LVI Mot. Corps encircling Velikie Luki with 16th Army.

9th Army: resting and standing outside of Smolensk.

2nd Panzer: all Mot. Corps resting/refitting.

6th Army: resting up for the siege of Kiev.

11th Army: resting.

Romanians: resting.
Hungarians: resting (attached to 17th Army).
Slovakians: resting (attached to XIV Mot. Corps).
Italians: resting gaining CPPs.

3rd Panzer: LVII Mot. Corps resting.

1st Panzer: pocket was eliminated and all Mot. Corps are resting.

I am still learning how to play this game, however, it seems to me that this is key to understanding what went wrong for you as the Axis in this game. From what I could see, it seems like you just didn't attack aggressively enough, especially in the early turns. During those early turns, the Soviet troops are all very weak, and can be pretty much swatted away like flies by German mobile units. The key then is to move forward aggressively and not sit around idling, especially on those early turns.

So that is probably the main takeaway lesson I would take from this and maybe suggest thinking about for the next game - don't rest too much in the early game. Attack and always move forward, because if you don't, the Soviets will just entrench and get more reinforcements, and then you will find that you can't move forward any more.

While CPP etc is nice, especially in the early game, I think you just need to attack as aggressively as you can. At some point, yes (probably around early August or so or perhaps late July), you will have to take a turn to rest the Panzers, but as far as possible, try to wait until the infantry catches up for that, and at the same time the Panzers are resting, other units in the sector need to be pushing and making progress, so that the next turn the fresh Panzers can be thrown into the attack the infantry had been doing the previous turn while the Panzers were resting.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

I read your AAR with interest, as well as also reading Keitherson's AAR from the Soviet side on discord.

I did a search for the word "rest" in this AAR. Here are the occasions where the word rest comes up. Here are all the instances I can see:

4th Panzer needs to clear some breathing room and rest.

1st Panzer start consolidating and take a rest.

4th Panzer: take Tallinn with the XXXXI Mot. Corps., rest the LVI Mot. Corps.

1st Panzer: XIV Mot. Corps conduct limited incursion near Korsun and rest the remaining Mot. Corps.

4th Panzer: XXXXI Mot. heads back to Pskov for rest and refit and LVI Mot. shifts to the 16th Army area for the push on Velikie Luki.

3rd Panzer: the XXXIX and LVII Mot. Corps continue to rest and refit for future operations.

4th Panzer: XXXXI recovering CPP, LVI holding Velikie Luki in isolation and resting.

6th Army: closed up to Kiev and resting for CCPs.

1st Panzer: keeping the lid on the three encircled rifle divisions near Kamyanka and resting for CCPs.

Romanians: resting, refitting for CPPs.

18th Army: resting to gain CCPs, holding just short of the Narva.

4th Panzer: XXXXI Mot. Corps and L Corps resting and refitting in Pskov area. LVI Mot. Corps encircling Velikie Luki with 16th Army.

9th Army: resting and standing outside of Smolensk.

2nd Panzer: all Mot. Corps resting/refitting.

6th Army: resting up for the siege of Kiev.

11th Army: resting.

Romanians: resting.
Hungarians: resting (attached to 17th Army).
Slovakians: resting (attached to XIV Mot. Corps).
Italians: resting gaining CPPs.

3rd Panzer: LVII Mot. Corps resting.

1st Panzer: pocket was eliminated and all Mot. Corps are resting.

I am still learning how to play this game, however, it seems to me that this is key to understanding what went wrong for you as the Axis in this game. From what I could see, it seems like you just didn't attack aggressively enough, especially in the early turns. During those early turns, the Soviet troops are all very weak, and can be pretty much swatted away like flies by German mobile units. The key then is to move forward aggressively and not sit around idling, especially on those early turns.

So that is probably the main takeaway lesson I would take from this and maybe suggest thinking about for the next game - don't rest too much in the early game. Attack and always move forward, because if you don't, the Soviets will just entrench and get more reinforcements, and then you will find that you can't move forward any more.

While CPP etc is nice, especially in the early game, I think you just need to attack as aggressively as you can. At some point, yes (probably around early August or so or perhaps late July), you will have to take a turn to rest the Panzers, but as far as possible, try to wait until the infantry catches up for that, and at the same time the Panzers are resting, other units in the sector need to be pushing and making progress, so that the next turn the fresh Panzers can be thrown into the attack the infantry had been doing the previous turn while the Panzers were resting.

Good observation overall

At para #1 But just moving forward attacking aggressively everything in site is "not" the answer. Sorry.

At para #2 See para #1 and you need to be resting those troops moving up from the back for CPP. CPP will easily replenish when you get this working for you. Takes a bit of getting used to but when you do, BOOM! (see below)

At para #3 without direction Chaos emerges and direction breaks down attacking everything aggressively. And that is what I see that has been happening on the map is attacks in random directions. Plus I can't tell for sure but the end picture really doesn't portray any real threat anywhere on the map. Thus no direction.

Plus, why attack everything aggressively when you can get an area for not attacking that area at all? Think about that.

You should be able to easily pull a PZ division or two off the line to rest while others are attacking.

What ever is your primary target, which should be Moscow since it is worth 66 VP, should have 3 PZ/Moto (3armor/1moto each corps minimum) Corps going for it full tilt. After turn 2 play leap frog with 1 Corps. This means use 2 PZ Corps to attack and 1 rest and rotate. Don't be afraid to put infantry Corps in your PZ Assualt Corps to get the CPP benefit.

Oh well I said enough. Good observation though, just needs a bit of fine tuning

[HardLuckYetAgain]

OH! And how you attack makes a difference too. Plus can you read a defense setup? Both these skills are a must to master for a German player.

[Nix77]

Aggressive play is the key to succesful German advance, but as HLYA said, the pacing needs to be carefully considered.

One thing I've noticed in AARs where the German advance is slow or too careful, is that many players tend to build a front line just for the sake of having a nice sturdy line. You don't really need that in my opinion.

My tactic/strategy in the few HvH games I've played was to build "fists", clumps of strong divisions that would punch through lines aggressively and deep. Between the fists, there would be only thin screens of units just menacing enough to prevent Soviet breakthrough. Keyword being "menacing", they don't even need to be strong enough to actually prevent it!

In WitE2, CPP and terrain effects add to the strengths of this strategy: bad terrain and area void of supply can be screened lightly, and fists can gather CPP to make even more effective punch. Punch with two fists and you have pincer. Punch hard enough and you have pocket.

Regarding rest & CPP, I think the best place to do it is as deep behind the enemy lines as possible, provided you have a "tunnel" wide enough to bring in supplies A good depot well supplied is of course always best place to do actual heavy duty refitting and resting.

HLYA mentioned lack of threat, I think in Zovs' game many sectors of the front are covered with too many divisions side by side, which reduces unit density in key sectors.