Why Japan lost?

WarPlan Pacific is an operational level wargame which covers all the nations at war in the Pacific theatre from December 1941 to 1945 on a massive game scale.

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Platoonist
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RE: Why Japan lost?

Post by Platoonist »

ORIGINAL: WraithMagus

The likes of Hitler and his closest advisors were actually avid readers... of "Boy's Adventure" stories, kind of like stuff like Johnny Quest, but books. Their way of looking at the world was that a few DESTINED HEROES could overcome unlimited odds because DESTINY SAYS SO! The Japanese, especially the army commanders, simply had confidence that the Americans could show up with three-to-one odds outnumbering the Japanese, and the Japanese would still win. (The decidedly awful showing from the US top brass with doctrinal inflexibility and refusal to take the Japanese seriously due to entrenched racist beliefs when giving "secret" aid to China that resulted in little more than free XP for Japanese pilots helped this. The US would learn some very costly lessons early war about taking the opponent seriously.)

Speaking of Johnny Quest and "Boy's Adventure", the Japanese kinda had their own "destined heroes" in the form of the samurai and the ninja. In December 1939, Ambassador Grew warned that attempts to defeat Japan via economic sanctions ignored Japanese psychology. He stated that "Japan is a nation of hardy warriors, still inculcated with the samurai do-or-die spirit, which has by tradition and inheritance become ingrained in the race." Grew went on to note that the Japanese throughout their history have faced periodic cataclysms brought about by nature and by man; earthquakes, typhoons, tsunamis, epidemics, the blighting of crops, and almost constant wars within and without the country. By long experience they were inured to hardship, and to regimentation.

The historian H.P. Willimott pointed out that Japan in 1941 was "a nation with no experience of defeat and, more importantly a nation (that believed itself) created by gods, and ruled by a god. This religious dimension provided the basis for the belief in the superiority of Japanese martial commitment--Yamato damashii--that was the guarantee against national defeat.
That said, I do think it's worth pushing back on the notion that having greater industrial strength inherently means you will win any war.

Japan's industrial poverty relative to that of the both the U.S. and the Soviet Union, certainly encouraged an acceptance of spiritual power over material strength to compensate. Even after its punishing defeat at Nomohan against the Soviets, which should have been a signal warning to the perils of warring with industrial giants with lots of tanks, the Imperial Japanese Army's operational thinking remained essentially primitive, unscientific, complacent and narrow. Their rationale was that the quantity and quality of the materiel possessed by Japan's enemies (and sheer numbers) could only be offset by ruthlessly encouraging intangible factors such as high morale, fanatic spirit and utter fearlessness in close fighting against men and armor. The experience of World War I, as processed in the Imperial Japanese Army, was that hardness was a prerequisite for survival and success in modern high-tech combat. Discipline, already harsh by Western standards, was tightened to the limit of everyday endurance.

The U.S. certainly found out in Korea and Vietnam that sheer industrial muscle was no guarantee of victory either. However, even earlier U.S. wars should have pointed out even poorly industrialized nations can punch above their weight. For reasons of honor, the Southern Confederacy, like the Japanese in WW2, fought on against shrinking odds and with an inferior manufacturing base long after any reasonable hope of victory had passed. Americans may have assumed, correctly, that Japan could not win a sustained war against the United States. What they failed to consider was one of the lessons of history. A so-called 'have-not' nation may well be possessed of a will and skill far out of proportion to her resources. Just because Japan couldn't win in the long run, didn't mean it couldn't be a ruthless contender.




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RE: Why Japan lost?

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: FirstPappy

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Why Japan lost.

#1 their strategic plan sucked. Thinking they could take X set of islands that show the enemy they were superior inflicting Y number of losses so they would go to the negotiating table if a faulty strategy.

#2 they didn't have the industrial might of the USA to turn out ships. Not even remotely close.

#3 even if they sank every carrier at midway and even in the solomons campiagn they would have very likely been eventually slaughtered at sea.

They would have had to be unbelievably lucky to literally sink the entire USN and protect their oil to have a chance at a negotiated peace. I am not even touching that the Soviet Union mowed them over in 1945. That India was pushing them back in 1944. That the USA basically was an endless war machine with a huge angry population that just wanted to destroy the Japanese for what they did at Hawaii. Or that their technology was behind. Or that their pilot training program was abysmal. Or that their codes were constantly cracked and they had 0% chance of cracking the USA's codes.

They were as screwed from the moment they attacked as a you would be if a lion who had not eaten in a week showed up next to you and you were in a flat grassland. You are dead meat.
warspite1

Yes, but apart from the above, it was a good idea.
Yes - again, and yet many of us enjoy playing the Japanese side in the myriad of computer and board Pacific War games released over the years. [;)]
Because they are games the Axis forces get powers far beyond reality to keep Axis players involved.
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RE: Why Japan lost?

Post by sven6345789 »

In short

"It´s the economy, stupid!"

Japan was doomed by it´s very decision to go to war.

This gives a good overview

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm


some points

-The United States built more merchant shipping in the first four and a half months of 1943 than Japan put in the water in seven years. The other really interesting thing is that there was really no noticeable increase in Japanese merchant vessel building until 1943, by which time it was already way too late to stop the bleeding.

-The other important figure here is the DD/Escort totals. Japan, an island empire totally dependent on maintaining open sea lanes to ensure her raw material imports, managed to build just sixty-three DDs (some twenty or so of which would have been classified by the Allies as DEs) and an unspecified (and by my unofficial count, relatively small) number of 'escort' vessels. In the same time span, the US put some eight hundred forty-seven antisubmarine capable craft in the water! And that total doesn't even cover the little stuff like the armed yachts and subchasers we used off our Eastern seaboard against the German U-Boats. All in all, by the end of the war, American naval power was unprecedented. In fact, by 1945 the U.S. Navy was larger than every other navy in the world, combined!

-So America had an advantage; so what? Well, as an example, let's take a moment to consider the importance of the Battle of Midway. Midway is often cited as the 'Turning Point in the Pacific', the 'Battle that Doomed Japan,' and a string of other stirring epithets. And there's no question that it broke the offensive capability of the Japanese Navy. The question I ask is: what difference would America's economic strength have made if the Americans had lost badly at the Battle of Midway? Let's take the worst case scenario (which, incidentally, was very unlikely, given our advantage of strategic surprise) in which a complete reversal of fortune occurs and the U.S. loses Enterprise, Yorktown, and Hornet, and Japan loses none of the four carriers which were present.
-In other words, even if it had lost catastrophically at the Battle of Midway, the United States Navy still would have broken even with Japan in carriers and naval air power by about September 1943. Nine months later, by the middle of 1944, the U.S. Navy would have enjoyed a nearly two-to-one superiority in carrier aircraft capacity! Not only that, but with her newer, better aircraft designs, the U.S. Navy would have enjoyed not only a substantial numeric, but also a critical qualitative advantage as well, starting in late 1943.

-In a macro-economic sense, then, the Battle of Midway was really a non-event. There was no need for the U.S. to seek a single, decisive battle which would 'Doom Japan' -- Japan was doomed by its very decision to make war.
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sveint
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RE: Why Japan lost?

Post by sveint »

I'm late to the party but the biggest mistake was to not "divide and conquer". They should have left the US alone, going after Dutch, French and other territories.

The actual historical "strategy" of Japan was pure madness and doomed for failure.
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RE: Why Japan lost?

Post by Platoonist »

ORIGINAL: sveint

I'm late to the party but the biggest mistake was to not "divide and conquer". They should have left the US alone, going after Dutch, French and other territories.

The actual historical "strategy" of Japan was pure madness and doomed for failure.

Luckily for the Roosevelt administration, Japanese leaders seemed to have come to regard war with the US as both inevitable and after the imposition of the oil embargo, urgent. They seemed to have been oblivious to the nasty domestic political difficulties they might have caused Roosevelt by confining their attacks in Southeast Asia to British and Dutch possessions. The IJN in particular insisted that the United States and Great Britain were strategically inseparable (mirroring Roosevelt's simplistic view of the alliance between Germany and Japan) and that an attack on the British and the Dutch in Southeast Asia was sure to provoke a violent US response, and therefore it was necessary to preempt the United States militarily by getting in the first blow.
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RE: Why Japan lost?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: sveint

I'm late to the party but the biggest mistake was to not "divide and conquer". They should have left the US alone, going after Dutch, French and other territories.

The actual historical "strategy" of Japan was pure madness and doomed for failure.
warspite1

I don't think there is any certainty that this would have worked. A successful invasion of Malaya/Singapore and the NEI would have given Japan access to raw materials the US had worked to deny them - particularly oil.

The timing would have been important also. With Germany - seemingly (no hindsight allowed) - about to scoop up the Caucasus and the southern Soviet Union, with Rommel seemingly about to invade Egypt (successfully this time) the position of the US would be potentially dire.

Just how long could the US continue to stay on the sidelines? The very real danger in the Summer of 1942 was that by the time the US came in, she may not have any Allies left standing (the British wouldn't quit after the loss of Egypt, but with the USSR down, the UK would have been next)....

The US has it seems largely escaped any examination of its role in entering the war. There are two reasons for this. The US did come in and largely beat Japan on her own. Also the Soviets (with massive US aid) stalled Blue and then Uranus pushed the Germans back. So in no small part due to the US the Axis were beaten. But what if (and in the summer of 1942 the US did not know what would happen) the Soviets were beaten, the British kicked out of Egypt and Japan free to start on India and foment an uprising there?......

I have no evidence to back it up, but I suspect a successful Japanese invasion of the NEI (and access to oil) would have brought the US in.
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RE: Why Japan lost?

Post by Torplexed »

ORIGINAL: sveint

I'm late to the party but the biggest mistake was to not "divide and conquer". They should have left the US alone, going after Dutch, French and other territories.

The actual historical "strategy" of Japan was pure madness and doomed for failure.

Ultimately I don't think this avoidance strategy would have worked. A few days before the attack on Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt did make a solid pledge to the British ambassador in Washington that the US would go to war in response to a Japanese attack on British or Dutch territory in Southeast Asia, a pledge that capped increasingly firm verbal assurances from him beginning in July 1941. FDR had already assured Churchill that a Japanese attack on British territory in the Pacific would be considered a casus belli.

Frankly, I can't see the Japanese just attacking European colonies in SE Asia without being seriously worried about the Philippines remaining firmly in US hands and astride their lines of communication back to Japan in the Luzon Straits. Whenever a war does come it would be like having a beam laying across your windpipe. If a conflict is delayed even another 4-6 months, there's a good deal more US hardware deployed to the Philippines, and more trained personnel using it. More time to fortify Luzon and train the Philippine Army. Even in fall 1941, the US was sending a stream of reinforcements to the PI. Japan invading Malaya and the Dutch East Indies would just give a greater sense of urgency to a reinforcing effort that was already underway. December 1941 was probably the last best time for Japan to seize the Philippines, and it still took five months to complete.
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RE: Why Japan lost?

Post by Duck Doc »

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Why Japan lost.

#1 their strategic plan sucked. Thinking they could take X set of islands that show the enemy they were superior inflicting Y number of losses so they would go to the negotiating table if a faulty strategy.

#2 they didn't have the industrial might of the USA to turn out ships. Not even remotely close.

#3 even if they sank every carrier at midway and even in the solomons campiagn they would have very likely been eventually slaughtered at sea.

They would have had to be unbelievably lucky to literally sink the entire USN and protect their oil to have a chance at a negotiated peace. I am not even touching that the Soviet Union mowed them over in 1945. That India was pushing them back in 1944. That the USA basically was an endless war machine with a huge angry population that just wanted to destroy the Japanese for what they did at Hawaii. Or that their technology was behind. Or that their pilot training program was abysmal. Or that their codes were constantly cracked and they had 0% chance of cracking the USA's codes.

They were as screwed from the moment they attacked as a you would be if a lion who had not eaten in a week showed up next to you and you were in a flat grassland. You are dead meat.

Re #3: the US had a hundred or so carriers at the end of the war. The death ride of the Yamato to Okinawa is a metaphor that pretty much makes Alvaro’s point,
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