On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I'm sure I could improve the results on the breakthroughs, and thus reduce MP penalty, but here's a potential opening for Red Army Resurgent:

,...

Is this opening better or worse than one without using motorization? If it is better how much better is this opening compared to the standard opening for this campaign percentage wise?

its different - see QBall's AAR for what I'd call a standard Soviet opening, that relies on large stacks closely hugging the pocket - this looks like the type of opening from early testing before axis players learnt how to break it open

so I'm not immediately convinced its game changing - it might even be breakable as there are some large gaps.

Where I think this becomes different is next turn, the capacity to deny the Germans a point to stabilise the front and possibly to envelop anything that tries to break in?

I am asking as a whole since no turn is an entity in and of itself. The whole game is a conglomeration of all turns together. One turn won't break the system, but many will and this motorization is that breakage. I can already visualize this out in my head without even putting it to the map. I really don't want to spend the time proving this for every one to see. Nor do I wish to break my current game with Liats to do so either. You are already seeing it but will come to light soon enough.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain




Is this opening better or worse than one without using motorization? If it is better how much better is this opening compared to the standard opening for this campaign percentage wise?

its different - see QBall's AAR for what I'd call a standard Soviet opening, that relies on large stacks closely hugging the pocket - this looks like the type of opening from early testing before axis players learnt how to break it open

so I'm not immediately convinced its game changing - it might even be breakable as there are some large gaps.

Where I think this becomes different is next turn, the capacity to deny the Germans a point to stabilise the front and possibly to envelop anything that tries to break in?

I am asking as a whole since no turn is an entity in and of itself. The whole game is a conglomeration of all turns together. One turn won't break the system, but many will and this motorization is that breakage. I can already visualize this out in my head without even putting it to the map. I really don't want to spend the time proving this for every one to see. Nor do I wish to break my current game with Liats to do so either. You are already seeing it but will come to light soon enough.

Just like I forcasted Tyronec would capture Baku in his game again BrianG here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=7&key= (posts relevant started at 172, & 183) where pretty much everyone but me was saying this was impossible

I am now forecasting this motorization will break this game. (Escepcially if you are trying to keep it historical) Either way I will rule it out with house rules because it is way too powerful.
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xhoel
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by xhoel »

This seems like an exploit to me and should be changed fast. A middle way would be to give the divisions only half of the MPs max on the turn they motorize (25 MPs) to simulate the difficulty of motorizing a full division on a whim. I think delaying the whole motorization for a full turn as suggested by Nix would be a bit too harsh and would make the whole temp motorization pointless as you are unable to react fast to an emergency when needed.

Having a house rule that rules this exploit out would be a good idea.
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GloriousRuse
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by GloriousRuse »

I think the issue is less on demand motorization than it is that this exceeds motorized MP for soviet units early war. You get 50 MP units rather than 35 in a period where the soviet army isn't supposed to be able to do that. Why not just cap on demand units at 35 until the mid war like every other soviet motorized formation?
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse

I think the issue is less on demand motorization than it is that this exceeds motorized MP for soviet units early war. You get 50 MP units rather than 35 in a period where the soviet army isn't supposed to be able to do that. Why not just cap on demand units at 35 until the mid war like every other soviet motorized formation?

This is bigger than just the MP's for just the Soviets. Much bigger.
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Q-Ball
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Q-Ball »

IMO, this is an exploit that needs to be closed. That RAR opening, while you can close the pocket without using Insta-Motorization, you don't really have enough units to firmly close the pocket AND push southwest toward Tatinskaya and down the other rail line. Using 3-4 mobile divisions on Turn 1 is bad enough, but on Turn 2 I think it's going to get REALLY challenging for the German player in that scenario

I think there should be a delay for it to take effect
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CapAndGown
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by CapAndGown »

You can look at either of my AARs for results of motorization since my opponent is a huge fan of motorizing everything in sight. I find it to be out of hand, but I have not said anything since I could have done it as well. For instance, check out this move.
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Mehring »

One solution would be to restrict such motorisation to administrative movement. I don't believe either belligerents in the East motorised for offensive purposes. Even in the West, where the US and Commonwealth infantry had enormous truck pools to draw from, they tended to advance through hostile territory on foot.
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TheFerret
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by TheFerret »

The Soviets getting more MP than should be possible for a Soviet motorized unit in 1941 just seems like a rules oversight. Motorized rifle divisions should have the same limited MP as mechanized divisions.

But other than that... I'd be hesitant to call for a change until players get a chance to try counter-strategies. In HLYA's AAR it strikes me that their opponent left Minsk wide open. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a Soviet cavalry division stacked with 10th Army HQ in Starye Dorogi, or one hex to the left of it, could have retaken Minsk too. It's not the game's fault the Germans left a 60+ km completely undefended gap in a critical sector. Plus, we have to remember that both sides can motorize - perhaps the Germans should have motorized some infantry or security divisions to ensure they had all the vulnerable rear areas ZOC-locked. All it would take to prevent this little adventure is 2 well-placed infantry regiments... well, now players should know that the Soviets are capable of moving into totally undefended areas to mess up your logistics.

In the RAR scenario example I'm interested in seeing whether heavy motorization will impact logistics to the point that it slows the offensive later on. I think that's supposed to be the tradeoff, right? You can commandeer trucks from the corps/army/front motor pool to move an infantry division... leaving the quartermasters short on trucks to distribute supplies to everyone else. If there's enough spare trucks laying around that the Soviets can trivially motorize an army's worth of infantry around Stalingrad in November 1942 without feeling any ill effects, the problem might be more with the scenario data than with the motorization mechanic.
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Sammy5IsAlive »

ORIGINAL: Mehring

One solution would be to restrict such motorisation to administrative movement. I don't believe either belligerents in the East motorised for offensive purposes. Even in the West, where the US and Commonwealth infantry had enormous truck pools to draw from, they tended to advance through hostile territory on foot.

That would be the simplest way.

Although personally I think it would be a shame to entirely lose the tactical possibilities that temporary motorisation brings. Ideally I would keep it but adjust the ruleset to increase the downsides and prevent abuse. One obvious change would be to say that a temp motorised cannot enter an enemy controlled hex - only pending ones. So you could have your temporary motorised infantry follow the path of 'conventional' Armoured/Motorised units but not blaze a trail of their own. I'd probably also prevent it being used on the first turn of a scenario. Maybe make temp motorised units much more prone to movement attrition and to heavy losses if attacked?
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by carlkay58 »

I think we also have to remember that it costs APs to do all of this in both the initial and each turn thereafter. This is not a small cost when you take into account the lower AP gains in WitE2. Yes the Soviets probably have more APs to spend than the Axis in 41 but as you get further into the war that shifts the other way. The largest AP expenditure is leadership changes quickly followed by depot creation and priority repairs. That does not leave much over for the offensive side to afford much motorizations. I do think that the first turn you motorize there should be a penalty and that the Soviet MP limit in 41 to extend to motorized units too.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

The AP cost is "nothing" compared to what this can do for both sides. I think the AP argument is a Red Herring.

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Beethoven1
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Beethoven1 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'd suggest a good compromise is lower cv and some sort of MP malus. In the end these are not trained motorised infantry formations and presumably are using a mix of vehicles, so they really shouldn't be as good as specialists in the role?

From my experience with this, I would say that CV is not the main factor here. There are some circumstances where you might want to motorize a high CV unit, but there are also others where you are using motorization as a kamikaze weapon, where you would actually prefer to suicide-run with low quality cheap troops than with expensive ones. That is especially true for the Soviets in the first few turns, though it may also be somewhat the case later in the game for either side, potentially. If Germany has made an early game pocket with a little whole in it, and you want to break the pocket but need to motorize to get a few more MP to do it, you don't really want to send a high quality unit into the pocket. You want to send a low quality unit into the pocket, because you don't want to lose an additional unit. You also want to send a unit with less trucks, so that if that sacrificial unit gets encircled the next turn rather than routed, Germany will capture less trucks.

The best unit for that job is something like an understrength unready NKVD border guards unit, which only requires ~50 trucks to motorize and may have 50-100 men. I have had good results with those units, and also with motorizing e.g. unready understrength paratroopers with 400-600 men. They don't do any fighting, but they flip hexes, and that can easily be all you need to either open a pocket or to cut off supply for all the German Panzer divisions.


I would also add, however, that I think that balance problems temporary motorization are in no way just a Soviet issue. It seems to me like a big balance issue for Germany as well, especially on turn 1 in the north/center due to the special movement rules that you can benefit from. Motorization of low quality units can also be, I think, preferable for Germany. Germany can motorize security divisions for 1 AP and about 500 trucks, whereas it costs 3 AP and about 1500 trucks to motorize a regular infantry division. If you want, after motorizing the security unit, you can also break it down into 3 regiments, but still only pay 1 AP (and about 500 trucks) for having previously motorized the entire division. What is more, since it uses less trucks to motorize those divisions, that means you will have more trucks left over to supply your motorized troops as well as your regular divisions.

Sure, the security troops will have low combat value, but does every mobile division really NEED to have a high combat value in the first few turns especially for Germany? I don't think so. Germany should be able to use its regular mobile divisions for fighting, and use motorized security troops for exploitation into empty hexes. There is going to be a significant amount of undefended territory somewhere, and with ~50 MP, Germany can just drive those units in and take a whole lot of free land quickly.

Germany can easily motorize e.g. 5 (or more, not sure how many exactly they start with?) security divisions on turn 1, for just 5 AP. That is pretty much a no brainer, IMO. Rush them forward with the Panzers for some nice very cheap extra ZOC blockers. Even if one or two of them were actually eliminated by the Soviets, that would hardly be the end of the world. As one example, Germany usually doesn't try to get to the Narva river on turn 2-3. However, you could always just send 1 security division there (or even just 1/3 of one security division), to force the Soviets to defend there before they really have sufficient troops to do so, to stop you from crossing it without a fight.


In principle it is a nice idea for a feature and it can make the game interesting and potentially more varied, so I would say it should not be simply removed as an option at all, but just (probably) needs some sort of rebalancing/adustment. I don't know what exactly would be the best way to do that, but there are clearly a variety of plausible options. But I would say that making motorization simply be delayed by 1 turn is probably not the best solution. The reason for that is that it favors the attacker. If e.g. you are Germany, you could then be resting your Panzers on turn 3 to build up CPP, and have the knowledge that you will do a bit attack next turn. So motorize a unit, and then it can be used to exploit and hold pockets along with the Panzers the next turn. Whereas if you are the Soviets, you don't know in advance which turns Germany will do a big attack, so you don't know when you will need to motorize.

Likewise with roles reversed later in the war when Soviets are attacking.
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by tyronec »

Is this opening better or worse than one without using motorization? If it is better how much better is this opening compared to the standard opening for this campaign percentage wise?
Having played the RAR/StB opening many times I would say that using motorisation can make it significantly better for the Soviets, though I never thought to try it myself. Getting Infantry down to the area South of Stalingrad is what the Soviets should be aiming for and without motorisation it is not going to happen before T2.

I agree with there is an exploit here that is not good for game balance. Temporary motorised units should not have the ability move faster than their equivalent motorised units of the same Nationality. Would suggest the following:
Temporary motorised units get MPs up to the maximum MPs available for normal motorised units of the same nationality.
Temporary motorised units cannot move into unconverted hexes. This would allow them to follow behind say a Panzer division but NOT to flip hexes.
Maybe there should be some restriction on motorising units that start the turn out of supply or a long way from a source of fuel or trucks. Not sure if this is practicable or perhaps it already applies to some extent - have not done enough motorisation to know.
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: tyronec

...
Maybe there should be some restriction on motorising units that start the turn out of supply or a long way from a source of fuel or trucks. Not sure if this is practicable or perhaps it already applies to some extent - have not done enough motorisation to know.

units need access to a depot with trucks to motorise, so in these instances it won't happen, or they will appear with low MP
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Nix77 »

Here's an example what the truck divisions can do to a sloppy German opening. I know the German opening is weakly constructed (it's my quick practice game), but I could just break all the pockets I wanted with the Soviet units at hand. In the north, all pockets were broken too.

We have a few uncalled visitors from across the Pripyat, SW Front, marked with red circles. Also notice the airborne team, ready to zoom away wherever they please.

Hmm... can't seem to post the picture? Anyway I had units from SW Front break the Bialystok pocket, and I have 3 airborne brigades with 45-48 MP sitting 50 miles from Minsk, ready for some serious pocket-breaking action (they weren't even needed).
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by loki100 »

och, fully agree - this is silly.

I'll make sure that Joel sees this thread.

I'm not so sure its a long term issue, such units will run low on MP if too far from depots but it clearly reduces T1 to who wants to spend the most AP on motorisation
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Nix77 »

I don't mind that the German side needs to be careful with their pockets and lines holding tight, but on some occasions a 48MP units appearing from the marshes at the beginning of the campaign is just too much.

I was already a bit dubious about temporary motorization when it was found out that Riga could be taken easily with a truckborne division on T1. Beethoven's motorized SEC division tactic obviously points out the flaws in the current state too.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Here's an example what the truck divisions can do to a sloppy German opening. I know the German opening is weakly constructed (it's my quick practice game), but I could just break all the pockets I wanted with the Soviet units at hand. In the north, all pockets were broken too.

We have a few uncalled visitors from across the Pripyat, SW Front, marked with red circles. Also notice the airborne team, ready to zoom away wherever they please.

Hmm... can't seem to post the picture? Anyway I had units from SW Front break the Bialystok pocket, and I have 3 airborne brigades with 45-48 MP sitting 50 miles from Minsk, ready for some serious pocket-breaking action (they weren't even needed).

Matrix/Slitherine is having a file upload problem that needs to be fixed. Once that is done you should be able to post the picture. I believe I understand what you did and I thank you for that and still would like to see the picture.

I just don't have the time to prove this out for people with 4 AAR games and family errands all weekend.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: loki100

och, fully agree - this is silly.

I'll make sure that Joel sees this thread.

I'm not so sure its a long term issue, such units will run low on MP if too far from depots but it clearly reduces T1 to who wants to spend the most AP on motorisation

O.O

Your eyes are open now ;-)
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