On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ON demand Motorization of a Division, in my opinion, is broken. Please see this AAR starting at post #33,

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=2&key=

Let the forum know what you think after reading the AAR about on demand motorization. In my opinion it is cheesy and breaks the game. But I can be totally missing something. Please post here or in the AAR.

[Nix77]

The motorization should have a delay imo. First the player sets the motorization, the division gains the trucks (if available, can gain more in logistics phase) but does not gain any extra MP. Next turn, the division is motorized and gains MP normally as all other motorized units, with same requirements (fuel gained in this logistics phase, leader rolls etc.) and restrictions (Soviet MP restrictions, fuel, fatigue etc).

The AP cost could be lower with this rule set.

Instant 48MP Soviet rifle divisions and German regular infantry lunging hundreds of miles in hostile territory doesn't sound good to me. I know the AP and truck costs are restrictive but the benefits gained seem overpowered (see HLYA AAR).

[Zovs]

I disagree, they are week long turns. Leave as is.

[carlkay58]

I seemed to recall a time that when you motorized a unit it only had half the MP of the motorized unit - not the full amount - on that turn. When you de-motorized the unit you were left with only half the foot MP.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I disagree, they are week long turns. Leave as is.

The turn length really has nothing to do with it. How does it make sense that a temporarily motorized Soviet rifle division can move 35% further than any other Soviet specialized motorized formation until Dec 1942, even on turn 1?

[Seminole]

I think this is ripe to exploit. I believe I'll lean on it in the Red Army Resurgent scenario I just started to show how much power it offers.
Apologies in advance to my opponent. [:D]

[CapAndGown]

I think there should be a time delay involved. You can't just suddenly pull a motorized division's worth of trucks out of your nether regions. (Well, maybe the Americans could, but I don't see it for the Germans or Soviets.) I think it should cost some amount of SMP to motorize. Say 25% (50 points). So you could motorize at the start of the turn and gain some benefit, or you could move regularly and then motorize for the full benefit the following turn. Insta-motorization, OTOH, strikes me as off.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I think this is ripe to exploit. I believe I'll lean on it in the Red Army Resurgent scenario I just started to show how much power it offers.
Apologies in advance to my opponent. [:D]

It has a TON of power and many are missing just how "powerful" this is. I was going to show it in one of my games but many ignore my AAR's or don't pay attention to what I say. I could have easily shown the power and all would have missed it. Hopefully when you do this # 1. People see just how devastating this is # 2. you give your opponent a fresh restart without using the motorization

[governato]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

The turn length really has nothing to do with it. How does it make sense that a temporarily motorized Soviet rifle division can move 35% further than any other Soviet specialized motorized formation until Dec 1942, even on turn 1?

And it'd certainly need some planning aaaand some time to get the trucks wherever they are needed. Russia is vast so a one week delay seems appropriate (unless all the nearby units also suddenly lose their trucks!).

[wpurdom]

Perhaps something simple like half the increase on the turn you do it and the following turn treated like a permanently motorized would be enough. It might still be excessive, but a movement of 30 is a lot different from 45.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I think this is ripe to exploit. I believe I'll lean on it in the Red Army Resurgent scenario I just started to show how much power it offers.
Apologies in advance to my opponent. [:D]

When shall we see the pictures? Or should I start working on a scenario showing how "EXPLOITABLE" this really is since I know the deadliness of this.

[Hardradi]

I agree, needs to be limited. You can outflank the thin German lines, get pocketed by the Germans, open the pocket with a one hex width and then motorise the unit that's behind the enemy. This allows you to wreck havoc in the rear cutting their supply lines and evening pushing for major rail lines and depots.

I just did this in Road to Leningrad in the Velike Luki region. It looked like I had enough movement to push all the way to Pskov in T13 or just go for a rail cut with ZOC. I thought it was a bit 'gamey' and headed south to Velike Luki instead.

Playing as the Germans though, I was ready for any such move from my opponent and made sure I could head off the attack.

Is it a matter of adjusting play style?

[Gam3r]

Let the forum know what you think after reading the AAR about on demand motorization. In my opinion it is cheesy and breaks the game. But I can be totally missing something. Please post here or in the AAR.

It is pretty much what happened in real life, except that all mobilized trucks were used for troops movement in rear area.


There is no such thing IRL as convert hexes, so no reason to charge forward.

I suggest that temporary motorized RD should pay more MP for entering enemy hexes in JUNE41, that should fix that problem, while allow to retreat, or advance forward in own territory

UPD:
even better, Any motorised unit that don't have motorcycle recon squad ib their TOE should pay more MP for entering enemy territory.
So designated moto units should have moto reckon, while foot units - should not.

[Seminole]

I'm sure I could improve the results on the breakthroughs, and thus reduce MP penalty, but here's a potential opening for Red Army Resurgent:

[Gam3r]

ORIGINAL: governato

And it'd certainly need some planning aaaand some time to get the trucks wherever they are needed. Russia is vast

It is planned economy. Every factory, firm, collective farm, etc - reports to STAVKA. Truck arrive to units from economy from day one.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

ORIGINAL: governato

And it'd certainly need some planning aaaand some time to get the trucks wherever they are needed. Russia is vast

It is planned economy. Every factory, firm, collective farm, etc - reports to STAVKA. Truck arrive to units from economy from day one.

The Red Army & Soviet economy wasn't exactly the well-oiled machine that the Communist Party and Uncle Joe wished it to be.

The game quite accurately depicts how the trucks DO NOT arrive to the middle of Siberian countryside, neither for SU or the Germans. The temporary motorization rule however breaks the logistics rules in a way that I think it's not supposed to.

[Gam3r]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

The Red Army & Soviet economy wasn't exactly the well-oiled machine that the Communist Party and Uncle Joe wished it to be.

There can be a lengthy debate over whether or not the combat units could have received trucks from the civilian sector.

We can definitely agree with this, and I have already suggested above - units without motorized reconnaissance element in their TOE will spent more MP when enter the hex controlled by the enemy.

It is logical to first send motorcyclists to recon enemy held territory, and then a convoy of trucks. Recon on friendly territory is not needed.
So temporary motorized leg-infantry can move fast in own hexes, and slow in enemy hexes - they do not have recon in their TOE.

And this in fact support my narrative. You CAN recieve trucs from civilian sector pretty easy, but you CAN'T recive motorcycles.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Nix77
... The temporary motorization rule however breaks the logistics rules in a way that I think it's not supposed to.

I don't think this is the case, I just tried to motorise something that is a long way from a depot and there weren't enough trucks, so they don't appear out of the ether.

some wider observations - I think in both WiTW and WiTE2 testing, for some reason people were not using temp motorisation. I guess put off by the admin cost and the truck demand. So I don't think this has been explored really for balance and I'd hesitate to call 'exploit' till the benefits and costs are understood.

In WiTW I now tend to perm-motorise a couple of Allied divisions in Italy and say 3 for France (the US ones are relatively cheap), I don't think its game breaking more it prevents the axis player knowing exactly what your potential mobility is on a given sector. Now that translates poorly to WiTE2 simply due to geography - there are far more hexes etc.

I'd suggest a good compromise is lower cv and some sort of MP malus. In the end these are not trained motorised infantry formations and presumably are using a mix of vehicles, so they really shouldn't be as good as specialists in the role?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I'm sure I could improve the results on the breakthroughs, and thus reduce MP penalty, but here's a potential opening for Red Army Resurgent:

Is this opening better or worse than one without using motorization? If it is better how much better is this opening compared to the standard opening for this campaign percentage wise?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I'm sure I could improve the results on the breakthroughs, and thus reduce MP penalty, but here's a potential opening for Red Army Resurgent:

,...

Is this opening better or worse than one without using motorization? If it is better how much better is this opening compared to the standard opening for this campaign percentage wise?

its different - see QBall's AAR for what I'd call a standard Soviet opening, that relies on large stacks closely hugging the pocket - this looks like the type of opening from early testing before axis players learnt how to break it open

so I'm not immediately convinced its game changing - it might even be breakable as there are some large gaps.

Where I think this becomes different is next turn, the capacity to deny the Germans a point to stabilise the front and possibly to envelop anything that tries to break in?