On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Share your gameplay tips, secret tactics and fabulous strategies with fellow gamers here.

Moderator: Joel Billings

User avatar
Zovs
Posts: 9201
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:02 pm
Location: United States

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Zovs »

I think I also see the exploit in this now. But there should be some way to temporary motorize some subset of units for both sides without it being a gamey function. Perhaps even a limit to both sides?
Image
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator
Tester for WDS games
MechFO
Posts: 852
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:06 am

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: Mehring

One solution would be to restrict such motorisation to administrative movement.

I think that would be the closest to historical usage.

Loading a conventional infantry unit on trucks for a ride is very different from having a proper motorized unit.

C&C along the entire command chain is a whole new world, not to mention that the drivers are not just there for driving, but an integral part of of a motorized unit and trained as such.

Reserve temporary motorization for when you need to quickly shift forces from one part of the front to the next.
MechFO
Posts: 852
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:06 am

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Temporary motorised units cannot move into unconverted hexes. This would allow them to follow behind say a Panzer division but NOT to flip hexes.

Even this I think is too much. The whole point of converted hexes is that combat is possible but not guaranteed, so needing extra precautions.
User avatar
Bamilus
Posts: 979
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: The Old Northwest

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Bamilus »

Imagine what Pelton would've done with this exploit lol
Paradox Interactive Forum Refugee
User avatar
Joel Billings
Posts: 33490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Contact:

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Joel Billings »

I agree that using temp motorized units to break pockets, especially early on, is an exploit and not intended. That part can be dealt with in a few ways (limits on Soviets in 1941 and/or limits on their temp motor MPs, in addition could limit only to units very near a supply source). For now, I would fully support a house rule ban on Soviet temp motorization in 1941.

However, one of the reasons we wanted temp motorization to be possible was that our understanding is that both sides at times put together motorized task forces (mostly regiment size but possible some bigger). I thought this was done by the German infantry in 41, and also was heavily used by the Soviets in their 1945 offensive. In fact we considered starting several Soviet rifle divisions motorized in the Vistula scenario. It seems that each of the 3 major fronts in that offensive had the equivalent of several rifle divisions motorized. These were used to keep up with the mobile forces and guard their flanks. IIRC we added in many mechanized brigades to represent these tasks forces (usually made up of a tank brigade or several tank battalions along with accompanying motorized infantry/engineer forces. I'm not sure we're ready to give up on these forces by making temp motorized units only be able to move in friendly territory (assuming by administrative movement you mean movement only in friendly territory). One problem we used to have was the switch over to temp motorization usually resulted in very low MPs on the switchover turn. We finally fixed that just before release, IIRC, but perhaps it was that problem that was making them less able to break pockets in early testing and could be why this didn't come up in testing. These units probably should have lower max MPs like the early Soviet units.

We'll talk this over and see what ideas Gary/Pavel have, but I encourage you not to use these temp motorized units to break pockets (at least in 41), so some kind of house rule should be used until we get to this.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
User avatar
HardLuckYetAgain
Posts: 8994
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:26 am

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I agree that using temp motorized units to break pockets, especially early on, is an exploit and not intended. That part can be dealt with in a few ways (limits on Soviets in 1941 and/or limits on their temp motor MPs, in addition could limit only to units very near a supply source). For now, I would fully support a house rule ban on Soviet temp motorization in 1941.

However, one of the reasons we wanted temp motorization to be possible was that our understanding is that both sides at times put together motorized task forces (mostly regiment size but possible some bigger). I thought this was done by the German infantry in 41, and also was heavily used by the Soviets in their 1945 offensive. In fact we considered starting several Soviet rifle divisions motorized in the Vistula scenario. It seems that each of the 3 major fronts in that offensive had the equivalent of several rifle divisions motorized. These were used to keep up with the mobile forces and guard their flanks. IIRC we added in many mechanized brigades to represent these tasks forces (usually made up of a tank brigade or several tank battalions along with accompanying motorized infantry/engineer forces. I'm not sure we're ready to give up on these forces by making temp motorized units only be able to move in friendly territory (assuming by administrative movement you mean movement only in friendly territory). One problem we used to have was the switch over to temp motorization usually resulted in very low MPs on the switchover turn. We finally fixed that just before release, IIRC, but perhaps it was that problem that was making them less able to break pockets in early testing and could be why this didn't come up in testing. These units probably should have lower max MPs like the early Soviet units.

We'll talk this over and see what ideas Gary/Pavel have, but I encourage you not to use these temp motorized units to break pockets (at least in 41), so some kind of house rule should be used until we get to this.

I do believe Germany using this in 41' should also be curtailed. A possible 5-8 extra Motorized Infantry Divisions is not something to take very lightly. I could agree to a (as in one) regiment, but having a whole extra Corps of German Motorized Infantry prancing around the battlefield could be devastating to the Soviets.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
Denniss
Posts: 9131
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Germany, Hannover (region)

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Denniss »

isn't it possible to simply limit the movement points they get from temp motorization to something between the value standard inf and standard mot inf get?
WitE dev team - (aircraft data)
WitE 1.08+ dev team (data/scenario maintainer)
WitW dev team (aircraft data, partial data/scenario maintainer)
WitE2 dev team (aircraft data)
User avatar
Joel Billings
Posts: 33490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Contact:

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Joel Billings »

ORIGINAL: Denniss

isn't it possible to simply limit the movement points they get from temp motorization to something between the value standard inf and standard mot inf get?

Yes, I'd expect it wouldn't be too hard to do that. In reality in testing we sort of had that due to the way the MPs were being calculated on the turn of conversion (although after that turn it probably could get much higher).
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
User avatar
guctony
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:56 am

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by guctony »

Before stamping it as an exploitation I think we should ask 3 questions

1) If motorization was available historically
2) Is motorization giving to much advantage to one side over the course of war
3) what is the fix. Is it a simple House rule or readjustment of game system.

My personal opinions would be as below

1) I do not have and document to support but I believe it was available historically and I think it is a requirement and used to a some degree on all sides. I have to find sources but it was used by Germans in 1943 to deal with Russian Dnieper river crossings. Maybe not in divisional level but at that time Germany didn't really have any full strength divisions in general. For my understanding is that motorization of divisions will be imperative in 1943 German defense operations and 1943-44 Soviet offensives.

2) well in overall understanding I don't find it to unbalancing the game in 250 turn radius. The only imbalance will come if one side is using it extensively and the other side not at all. But at the same time having this asset is much better than not having in the opening turns as I can also claim that most German players including me is relax with in first turns of game in regards to enveloping operations. Because I can equally argue that unless you perfectly/fully close the soviets envelopes you are not closing at all. I do not totally agree an envelope by ZOC. this is a another abstraction of the game which we have to accept it as there can be no special rules for just a tiny fraction of the game. For me if there are holes in the line soviets units will fly through. so motorization gives higher incentives for players to make a proper envelope Including me(as I suffered from it regardless of it was done by motorization or not). and I suspect many players coming from WITE like me focusing to this understanding. Enveloping in WITE east was much easier than WITE2.

3)First of all I would like to express my truss on the Developers. I am sure after ample feedback they will come up with a solution. Until that time has come it is very easy to agree on some house rules to fix the issue from the beginning of any new Game. But at the same time I urge players not to implement such rules in their ongoing games as we are still learning and understanding the game an its better to play first one or two games without house rules to understand what happening. I think this way we can provide best feedback for Dev's to take a decision. In other words its too early to take a stand.

To summarize currently I support the motorization of units as it gives a huge depth to planning and execution of the war. Also I am considering it was available historically. And we still have time for some adjustments after seeing the full picture (an AAR for full length of game). I am sure community and specially Developers will come up with a fix.
"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal
Karri
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 4:09 pm
Contact:

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Karri »

What do the truck losses look like when motorising units? Is there any reason not to use trucks this way if the losses are low? Otherwise those trucks just sit in the pool doing nothing (until you run out of trucks anyways).

Also, I think historically it was quite usual to pool motorised elements to move units around, though not offensively.
User avatar
Joel Billings
Posts: 33490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Contact:

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Joel Billings »

We've already agreed that we need to block this for the Soviets in 1941. So players should absolutely refrain from doing this in 1941 for the Soviets.

The easiest thing we can do in addition to this is to cap the MPs of temp motorized units to 35 MPs, just as we do with motorized brigades.

I saw someone wrote about motorizing 4 German divisions in 1941. This would seem impractical, given it would use almost all of the APs each turn, and use up trucks that could be used in depots supplying units. In any case, they'd be worth a bit less if at 35 MPs. Given our admin movement rules, they'd still be able to move long distances in friendly territory, which is what the original temp motorization rules were intended for. Limiting to just friendly hexes would prevent them from being used in the ad hoc way that they were used at times in the war.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
MechFO
Posts: 852
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:06 am

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by MechFO »

Looking through Army Group North in 41 I see a mention of an Infantry Regiment getting admin moved by truck from Oranienbaum to the Volkov, but that's it.
User avatar
CapAndGown
Posts: 3078
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Virginia, USA

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by CapAndGown »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We've already agreed that we need to block this for the Soviets in 1941. So players should absolutely refrain from doing this in 1941 for the Soviets.

The easiest thing we can do in addition to this is to cap the MPs of temp motorized units to 35 MPs, just as we do with motorized brigades.

I saw someone wrote about motorizing 4 German divisions in 1941. This would seem impractical, given it would use almost all of the APs each turn, and use up trucks that could be used in depots supplying units. In any case, they'd be worth a bit less if at 35 MPs. Given our admin movement rules, they'd still be able to move long distances in friendly territory, which is what the original temp motorization rules were intended for. Limiting to just friendly hexes would prevent them from being used in the ad hoc way that they were used at times in the war.

I would prefer something that effects both sides and is not limited to one year. To me the biggest thing that seems off about this is how the motorization MP bonus is so instantaneous. One would think that it would take a day or two to pull together the trucks needed to motorize foot units. So my suggestion is that on the turn that a unit is motorized it pay 25% of its SMP for that turn in acquiring the trucks. This would provide for a max of 38 MP on that turn. It would also prevent the Germans from motorizing on turn 1 since they have 0 SMP on that turn. After the turn on which the units were motorized they would have the same MP restrictions as regular motorized units.
User avatar
guctony
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:56 am

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by guctony »

I would like highlight in Real life trucks available to German divisions were higher than claimed. Most divisions would acquire trucks on the way and did not proclaim them. It was evident in one case. When Germans start their retreat after Kursk operation towards Dnieper they realized they don't have enough transportation for moving stored supplies. So it is said that they announced Black Friday to German units for come get what they want. To everybody's surprise a lot of Trucks appeared from German divisions to collect to loot and stores were emptied in short order. It is said that one side effect of this action was a lot of left over vodka and second quality alcohol in the stores. As German unit took away only quality French booze. The end result was all advance Soviets units pillage depots and get drunk for two to three days. Which help German in their retreat. I might be wrong but I think it was Kharkov depots.

But in the end this is a specific case.
"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal
User avatar
Beethoven1
Posts: 1439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:23 pm

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Beethoven1 »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I saw someone wrote about motorizing 4 German divisions in 1941. This would seem impractical, given it would use almost all of the APs each turn, and use up trucks that could be used in depots supplying units.

That is why if you are playing Germany, it is probably a good idea to motorize security divisions instead. Those will use 1 AP per division rather than 3, so you have a lot of AP still left over for other things. And in addition, they use about 1/3 as many trucks as an infantry division, so you should also have a good # of trucks left over to be used in depots supplying units. But they can drive just as far into empty land, of which there should be ample amounts in various places on the map in the first ~5 turns or so. The Soviets can't adequately defend everywhere at that point, so just drive and quickly take wherever they are not defending.
User avatar
Beethoven1
Posts: 1439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:23 pm

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Beethoven1 »

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

I would prefer something that effects both sides and is not limited to one year. To me the biggest thing that seems off about this is how the motorization MP bonus is so instantaneous. One would think that it would take a day or two to pull together the trucks needed to motorize foot units. So my suggestion is that on the turn that a unit is motorized it pay 25% of its SMP for that turn in acquiring the trucks. This would provide for a max of 38 MP on that turn. It would also prevent the Germans from motorizing on turn 1 since they have 0 SMP on that turn. After the turn on which the units were motorized they would have the same MP restrictions as regular motorized units.

That sounds reasonable on its face to me, but I am not sure it is enough. I have done some things that probably should not be possible with well less than 50 MP, such as squeeze a motorized NKVD border guard unit into a pocket that was otherwise as well sealed as you could reasonably expect, thereby opening a pocket and getting Germany to rout, rather than eliminate, 6-7 divisions (saving tens of thousands of men with only a few hundred border guards, 50 trucks or so, and 1 AP). There are plenty of times when ~35 MP would be enough to do that, and you don't really need 50. Although your idea would make it harder and somewhat less frequent that you could do this, because the NKVD border guards would not always have their full possible MP/SMP at the start of each turn.
User avatar
Seminole
Posts: 2240
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:56 am

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Seminole »

I think it should be addressed in two ways.
First, as you mentioned avoid giving the Soviets a way to exceed other mechanized MP limits.

Additionally, I would put an extra +1 malus on German and Soviet units (thus +2 for Soviet mot.) on moving in enemy territory, as they shouldn't be expected to do so with the practiced ease of organically mechanized formations.

Still valuable, but pulls their punch in a bit. Nixing it in '41 for the Soviets as well makes sense.
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I saw someone wrote about motorizing 4 German divisions in 1941. This would seem impractical, given it would use almost all of the APs each turn, and use up trucks that could be used in depots supplying units.

That is why if you are playing Germany, it is probably a good idea to motorize security divisions instead. Those will use 1 AP per division rather than 3, so you have a lot of AP still left over for other things. And in addition, they use about 1/3 as many trucks as an infantry division, so you should also have a good # of trucks left over to be used in depots supplying units. But they can drive just as far into empty land, of which there should be ample amounts in various places on the map in the first ~5 turns or so. The Soviets can't adequately defend everywhere at that point, so just drive and quickly take wherever they are not defending.

to be honest, there is a divide in the playing community. One part takes a broadly common sense, I would never use Security Divisions as my advance guard, the other thinks 'they are cheaper to motorise'. Now neither group is right or wrong but its usually best they don't meet in the same MP game.

There comes a point where any complex game can be broken/exploited if you head off far enough from the basic design. Some/most can be dealt with some ease, but it can't legislate for every potential issue?
RG11B19D
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:14 pm

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by RG11B19D »

Please. Don't do it!

A game doesn't change history. It allows us to peek into the past and learn. Games are not a book. They allow experimentation.

The sand box feel that instant motorized units is,
FUN!!! [:)] FUN!!! [8D] FUN!!! [:D]

Is it historical? Not really.[:-]
Is this a game? Yes. [&o]
Do we try to balance the 2. Of course.[8|]

Give us a toggle that allows us FUN. [:D] or Closer to history. [>:]

Two players who come to an agreement about motorized units is the best solution. imho

Don't force limited choices.
Give me freedom of choice.

Nix77
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:19 am
Location: Finland

RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit

Post by Nix77 »

ORIGINAL: RG11B19D

Please. Don't do it!

A game doesn't change history. It allows us to peek into the past and learn. Games are not a book. They allow experimentation.

The sand box feel that instant motorized units is,
FUN!!! [:)] FUN!!! [8D] FUN!!! [:D]

Is it historical? Not really.[:-]
Is this a game? Yes. [&o]
Do we try to balance the 2. Of course.[8|]

Give us a toggle that allows us FUN. [:D] or Closer to history. [>:]

Two players who come to an agreement about motorized units is the best solution. imho

Don't force limited choices.
Give me freedom of choice.


I want temporary motorized spaceships for the Germans, and Guderian should be able to tame and ride a Soviet sandworm. Now that would be FUN!
Post Reply

Return to “The War Room”