41 Campaign, tyonec (A) vs Dodo98 (v).

[tyronec]

T04.

Very little combat as there are few Soviets in sight.

18th Army continue to occupy the Baltics.

PG4 push towards Moscow, just one Infantry division got close enough to attack, the rest is by the Panzers. The Panzer Corps that was in the Baltics joins up.

PG3 had their 2-unit pocket broken, so reseal it. Pushing towards Bryansk. No combats.

PG2 link up with PG3 to seal off the marshes. Kiev was not garrisoned so take it. A few attacks and make a small pocket.

PG1 take Nikolaev, thought about making a pocket but decided to rout out the 1-division garrison so that supplies would ship in earlier. Not sure if I can get across the Dnepr next turn as the Infantry are some way behind.

[tyronec]

Am going to do a few posts on Axis supply, as described in more detail here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4988477.

This is the situation at the start of T05.
The Baltics have got a connected rail line almost up to the Narva by using two dedicated Corps with RR SUs. Will keep one of them in the North and probably use the other to connect up to Pskov.
All the three main ports are working and actually have a surplus of supplies, probably will move some Luftwaffe bombers up in a turn or two to support any attacks by 18th Army.

[tyronec]

This is PG4 and PG3.
Each has one dedicated rail line which are not linked up so all supplies will flow East and none between rail lines. Have the two active lead depots on '4', the next one back on '3' and any other depots on '2' or less. This will mean maximum supplies go to the two lead depots and some to the next one back.
There are no Bombers past the start line and the Luftwaffe is on Priority '1' so as not to draw any supplies from the troops that matter.
MPs for the Panzer units are in the 30's and 40's. I would normally expect them to be a bit higher but in this game the Soviets have been retreating fast so we are a long way ahead of the lead depots. MPs will improve over the next few turns as the advance slows down and the FBDs catch up.
Am railing a maximum of one infantry division on any turn along the rail lines.
As the Freight data shows the supply situation is good.

[Nix77]

I agree that the German supply situation is too loose, at least in 1941. Watching Tyronec steamroll through the plains just confirms my worries

Couple of random thoughts:
- Is it too easy to build the rail network?
- Are depots too cheap?
- Do the panzers & moto divisions actually need the extra fuel they have at the start of T1?

I've used Carlkay's AAR as my logistics test bench, and it seems worrying that the panzer groups and armies seem to be getting all the supply they want and then some more, way into the late autumn.

I also noticed this... is this a bug? The supply MP seem to ignore rivers or use some super admin movement? The HQ stacked with those divisions needs 10MP to Fastov...



I'm not sure what kind of formula the depot => unit freight transfer uses, but panzer divisions seem to easily get 150+ tons of freight from depots almost 300 miles away. They lose a lot in the process, but 150+ received is common.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Now, with Germans having all these "so called" negatives to their supply in 1941, I would hate to see what their supply would be without the negatives.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Nix77
I'm not sure what kind of formula the depot => unit freight transfer uses, but panzer divisions seem to easily get 150+ tons of freight from depots almost 300 miles away. They lose a lot in the process, but 150+ received is common.

I think this might be a bug. There's several cases of divisions receiving a lot of freight from far away depots without losing any. Just check Carlkay's AAR, Turn 17 beginning of turn save for starters.

Here's an example, a lucky supply run from Daugavapils to Yartsevo, close to Vyazma, with no freight lost:

[DeletedUser1769703214]

This penetration to Moscow on turn 4 and supply at Vitebsk turn 5 this game is over. 14 hexes to Moscow from lead German unit turn 4. Not enough real estate left since most of it was made without a fight turn 1 & 2. Personally I would ask for my opponents surrender than continue this.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I agree that the German supply situation is too loose, at least in 1941. Watching Tyronec steamroll through the plains just confirms my worries

Couple of random thoughts:
- Is it too easy to build the rail network?
- Are depots too cheap?
- Do the panzers & moto divisions actually need the extra fuel they have at the start of T1?

I've used Carlkay's AAR as my logistics test bench, and it seems worrying that the panzer groups and armies seem to be getting all the supply they want and then some more, way into the late autumn.
.....

Tyrone is still doing the trick of not moving up the LW, if his opponent was doing active GS that would hurt (side with the most bombers in a GS does damage over and above the direct effects).

Do the panzers & moto divisions actually need the extra fuel they have at the start of T1

To me is the problem, but it probably is realistic given the German preparations. It insulates the Pzrs against being cut off for the first few turns and if they don't then fight much, they don't really need to draw down much new supply till about t8.

A Soviet player has to look for those early cut-offs not for their short term value but the speed at which they trip the axis side into needing to live hand-mouth for resupply.

Are depots too cheap?

no but I do think that repair of railyards is perhaps not costing enough supply in turn, while clearly some of it was manual labour even a minimal level of effective sabotage means you need to bring in specialist kit to repair parts of the system

[Nix77]

Oh and I agree that minimum Max ToE-setting should be lower than 50%, maybe 20%-35%. Having Soviet manpower where you actually need it is a huge help. I understand the reasoning behind the 50% limit, but lowering it would help the Soviet player to raise an effective army faster.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: loki100

Tyrone is still doing the trick of not moving up the LW, if his opponent was doing active GS that would hurt (side with the most bombers in a GS does damage over and above the direct effects).

I agree, Soviet player definitely needs to be more active to hinder the German advance, be it with the VVS, speedbumps or counterattacks. What we're seeing is Tyronec's panzers waltzing over an empty countryside mostly

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I agree that the German supply situation is too loose, at least in 1941. Watching Tyronec steamroll through the plains just confirms my worries

Couple of random thoughts:
- Is it too easy to build the rail network?
- Are depots too cheap?
- Do the panzers & moto divisions actually need the extra fuel they have at the start of T1?

I've used Carlkay's AAR as my logistics test bench, and it seems worrying that the panzer groups and armies seem to be getting all the supply they want and then some more, way into the late autumn.
.....

Tyrone is still doing the trick of not moving up the LW, if his opponent was doing active GS that would hurt (side with the most bombers in a GS does damage over and above the direct effects).

Do the panzers & moto divisions actually need the extra fuel they have at the start of T1

To me is the problem, but it probably is realistic given the German preparations. It insulates the Pzrs against being cut off for the first few turns and if they don't then fight much, they don't really need to draw down much new supply till about t8.

A Soviet player has to look for those early cut-offs not for their short term value but the speed at which they trip the axis side into needing to live hand-mouth for resupply.

Are depots too cheap?

no but I do think that repair of railyards is perhaps not costing enough supply in turn, while clearly some of it was manual labour even a minimal level of effective sabotage means you need to bring in specialist kit to repair parts of the system

You don't need German Ground Support. You can go all of 41 without it. I didn't use the Ground Support until recently myself and only because I wanted to see what extra bonus it could do. You just don't need it as Germany. What are we to do????? A house rule to say the Germans have to use their airforce forward and at a specific supply level? LOL

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Oh and I agree that minimum Max ToE-setting should be lower than 50%, maybe 20%-35%. Having Soviet manpower where you actually need it is a huge help. I understand the reasoning behind the 50% limit, but lowering it would help the Soviet player to raise an effective army faster.

Exactly! This would help out. At least how I play I know it would. Too many Inf, Armor/Mech pulling replacements to 50% when they are depleted, GAH

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

ORIGINAL: loki100

Tyrone is still doing the trick of not moving up the LW, if his opponent was doing active GS that would hurt (side with the most bombers in a GS does damage over and above the direct effects).

I agree, Soviet player definitely needs to be more active to hinder the German advance, be it with the VVS, speedbumps or counterattacks. What we're seeing is Tyronec's panzers waltzing over an empty countryside mostly

Turn 1 and a few hexes to Vitebsk is a TOTAL non-starter. This is what I mentioned earlier in this AAR.

[Nix77]

In my opinion it was a mistake to make the first turn a full week, and reflect that to the German maneuvering ability. Basically the Soviet player has half a week less time to react than in WitE1, which makes the effect of a well-executed and thoroughly practiced German opening even more pronounced.

[Nix77]

In effect, we're kind of skipping the battles for Lvov, Rovno, Riga, Minsk and even Vitebsk since the German player plays these solo, and the Soviet player has no power to make any counter-effort for these cities.

In WitE1, some of these cities were still contested on Soviet T1.

[carlkay58]

There are several things that can be deducted from this AAR:

1) There is more than one way to make the Axis Logistics work. Between this AAR and mine there are massive differences, yet in both games the Axis are enjoying an abundance of supply for their panzers. The conclusion from this is that the Axis supply situation is probably too easy.

2) The Soviets cannot afford to run away. The Axis have the ability to actually out run them to Moscow and Stalingrad. The Soviets will have to figure out a way to slow the Axis down.

3) We still have not seen a good Soviet defense against an able Axis player as of yet. When the two players are novices then the Soviets have the edge. When the Axis player has good knowledge of what to do, then the Soviet player is in deep trouble. The quest for a good Soviet defense (at least in the AARs published to this forum) is still ongoing.

4) Historically the Axis logistics was in a shambles until the pockets were eliminated and even then it never quite caught up to the front lines until spring 42. Some of this was a total disregard of rear area security until turn 7/8 in game terms. Large amounts of Axis supplies were being lost (along with the trucks carrying it) due to Soviet troops that were disorganized and wandering the rear areas of the Panzer Groups. Having the infantry armies follow up and close with the panzers helped some but not all of that situation. The Soviet partisan movement did not really get organized until turn 6 or so in game terms, but the massive amounts of wandering Soviet troops were almost more effective against the Axis supply lines than the partisans were later on in 41 or even later in the war.

5) There are very few games where the LW is used to any extent as it was historically. Why? Because operational losses have been so large that the LW will melt away in the first 8 to 10 turns even with minimal usage. So whether the Axis players say it is because of the supply drain (which is wrong because just read the Freight report and you will see that the entire LW takes up less than half the freight usage of a single infantry army) or to preserve it from heavy operational losses.

6) Tyronec and HYLA are some of the best players out there and M60 is probably the best Soviet player at the moment with Loki pretty close.

[carlkay58]

A quick correction to the previous post (deliberately not editing it) but it looks like the LW Air Commands actually require the same amount of Freight as an infantry army. Of course this is spread across the entire front and the heavy users (bombers) tend to be in rear areas where supply is not as hard to get as the front lines.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58


2) The Soviets cannot afford to run away. The Axis have the ability to actually out run them to Moscow and Stalingrad. The Soviets will have to figure out a way to slow the Axis down.


6) Tyronec and HYLA are some of the best players out there and M60 is probably the best Soviet player at the moment with Loki pretty close.

At #2 See picture below in yellow 1st turn 100% guaranteed, then 2nd turn in orange the Germans are pretty much 99.99% guaranteed that area all the way to Smolensk, at a minimum, by turn 2. That is 1/2 the way to Moscow in just two turns even if the Soviets put up speed bumps. At this point even throwing in a whole bunch of units the Germans can hasty attack all the way Smolensk is "not" going to stop them just as Tyronec mentioned earlier. Then stack that with the easy dual rail conversion through the baltic states. ****IMO just get rid of the dual track conversion in the Baltic States percentage of 70%. This I believe will have a better simulation of German supply for the center. You can always leave the 70% chance on non dual track.****

At #6 I am "not" in the best category of players. I just know enough to make me dangerous.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

ORIGINAL: Nix77
I'm not sure what kind of formula the depot => unit freight transfer uses, but panzer divisions seem to easily get 150+ tons of freight from depots almost 300 miles away. They lose a lot in the process, but 150+ received is common.

I think this might be a bug. There's several cases of divisions receiving a lot of freight from far away depots without losing any. Just check Carlkay's AAR, Turn 17 beginning of turn save for starters.

Here's an example, a lucky supply run from Daugavapils to Yartsevo, close to Vyazma, with no freight lost:

This is probably not a bug after all. Could be that received replacement freight can't be lost. 17th PzDiv received 200+ tons worth of replacements that round, probably all the freight from Kraslava was replacements. The save was actually Carlkay's AAR T9.

[tyronec]

Tyrone is still doing the trick of not moving up the LW

To label this as a trick is not appropriate. The game is designed so that players can allocate their supplies where they want to, I chose to direct mine primarily towards the Panzers and next towards the German ground forces.
It may or may not be effective for the Soviets to make more use of the VVS, my approach in past games has been to preserve the bomber force during the early turns and then to use them for GS and GA. In this game I have endeavoured to have fighter cover at the front all the time so not moving up the Luftwaffe bombers up is really not a factor in how much impact the VVS would have.