I Suck... Less. Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love WitE2.

[neuromancer]

Figured I'd drop another update in here, in case there may actually be one person in the universe (other than me) that gives a damn, [:'(]

So, after 40, or was it 50 more games (actually I think I'm up to 9 kicks at the can). I made some real progress.
Although the VPs don't really reflect it, I did actually do better.


Hrm... it's erring when I try to upload a screenshot...

Well, anyway, the short version. I captured Luga and Novgorod this time, so I am getting better... slowly.

I'm also ahead in every casualty category, but overall casualties are also down. Significantly less Soviet men killed (just under 600K total), and a few more of mine (a shade over 70K - had a few bad attacks), less Soviet guns destroyed (9277) to a little less for me (725), less Soviet AFV destroyed (1960) but significantly less of my own lost (259). Points wise I was still ahead of the Soviets, so I was okay with it. The air war is something I was really happy with though, 3243 Soviet AC down to only 419 of mine; their fighter force was just a wee bit depleted by the end.

Total VP 1861 to 2373. Still need to change possession of more of those cities.

I've been making notes of the lessons I've been learning, and will post them when I actually really accomplish something.

Some key points is that I accomplished this much with a combination of my old tactics (16th and 18th Armies are a blunt object to smash into the Soviet lines whenever possible) while also using the tips I've been taught here, and that if the panzers and motorized infantry get bogged down in a slug fest they are useless, pull them out, leave it for the leg infantry. Another thing is that I didn't obsess over pocketing Soviet units; unless you can get a whole bunch of them, or just do it while doing something else, it isn't worth the slowing of your advance to deal with them, just rout them and move on. On the air war side I've been MUCH better about not flying my planes too far for little gain and suffering a bunch of Ops Losses, I've also gotten better at ensuring that there is fighter escorts when in enemy territory, plus... 9000 feet is too low a cruising altitude, I pushed everything up to 15,000 and my flak casualties went WAY down - still suffer them as your planes come down to do their missions, but until then they aren't getting randomly shot down by every Soviet soldier and child with a slingshot. And I've also been a lot better at not using my ground support unless I need it, so probably not until August.

For a while I thought I might actually pull out a draw, but around turn 10 realized that wasn't going to happen. As it had been my best game to date, I wondered what I could have done differently, then I remembered that one of my motorized corps got bogged down trying to take Adreapol, and then had to sit on it covering it for another turn or two. This was a complete waste of them and when the Soviets put up an unexpectedly stiff resistance on turn 3 I should have abandoned it and left it for the infantry to take, that flank is largely static for most of the game once Adreapol is taken, and another 12 or 16 points for the Soviets isn't really going to make a difference, the main thing is to have it before the end of the game.

I think I'll try again from turn 2 or 3 and see what difference pulling out of there earlier makes. I think a key point is you need to be pushing north past Pskov as early as possible, because on turn 10 is when hordes of commies come charging out of the east at the start of each turn (not the Siberians, they are later, just reinforcements). And once those hordes get in place your progress slows to a relative crawl.


Edit: Should have been "pushing north past Pskov", I had "nothing" which is absolutely wrong.

[jlbhung]

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

Figured I'd drop another update in here, in case there may actually be one person in the universe (other than me) that gives a damn, [:'(]

I am reading [:)]. Interesting progress and will definitely follow.

[loki100]

me too - find your reports fascinating, esp in terms of how someone comes to term with the game concepts and (more tricky) how to slot them together

[RobWorham]

Yeah, don't abandon your comrades in the trenches!

I'd contribute more, if I could find the time, but I'm learning so much from your comments and content. Just started my fourth game (second RtL after the two intro scenarios) and things are improving slowly. Taking my time and being as thorough as possible, so hopefully I'll get a better result this time...

[neuromancer]

Ah, well then, thanks for the interest. [:)]

I was fairly pleased with this game as things were starting to come together fairly well for once, just got the push North going too late. And it turns out that was game 8, not 9 (I started keeping my end game saves, and numbering them).

I did already pick up from turn 2 (and got a weird bug on turn 3 where one of my fighter squadrons and the fighter stab redeployed to Soviet controlled bases way far away from where they were supposed to go... I was able to immediately pull them back to my own bases like they were supposed to, doesn't look like I lost any fighters, the squadron had no planes in it, but all my other squadrons were at 40 so I think they were just re-deployed or put in the pool... I hope).

I did turns 2, 3 and 4 last night before calling it a night. Changed a few things, sending more infantry and the security east to relieve the panzers ASAP, some revision on how I was clearing the pockets, and took another look at the AAR that showed Velkie Luki being taken on turn 2. With that I saw that that you had to carefully take the path that cost the least MP to make it, so I sent the further back motorized unit and panzer unit to clear out anyone along the way, and then the closer panzer to capture the city. On turn 3 I then made a point of flying recon over the area - which was a bit hard on recon planes as it was at very long range for the little spotter planes that 1 Luftflotte is mostly equipped with - and found a bloody great horde of Soviet units packing in around the area... yeah, we won't try to to push east at this time. I left the motorized infantry and panzers pretty much where they started the turn, just kicking the units next to them away. On turn 4 the infantry arrived to relieve them - the 5 divisions I had assigned to 4th PG IIRC, and the motorized corps pulled back to prepare for the push north. The 4th PG infantry will be relieved by units from the 16th (or is it the 18th?) on turn 5 so they can start to prepare as well. I also sent the other motorized corps haring north towards Tallinn, I got there on turn 4 but didn't think I could take it with just one motorized infantry division... I saved and gave it a try out of curiosity, I was right, I'll need both motorized infantry, and might include the panzer division as well, although in the past it just needed the two infantry.

I spend the early turns spreading around the support assets, concentrating a disproportionate amount in the 4rh PG, although not vastly more than the regular line infantry. I'm never sure how much difference the support units make as it's mostly behind the scenes, but I figure put the heavier artillery and the StuGs on the tip of the spear, along with more pioneers, and the AA companies assigned to the divisions directly. Everyone else gets 3 artillery, an AA (mixed not light), a pioneer, and a construction unit, with some of the remaining less common units spread around. The rest of the construction units are at the army level (2 each), and AGN for putting in depot cities.

I also had some fun trying to decide how to distribute my infantry. In the end I think I have 17 divisions divided up between 16 and 18th armies, with 5 assigned in one corps to 4th PG. I have L corps split off and assigned to rail repair duty (I'm sure the general in charge of L corps is thrilled...) The one corps of infantry is the only one I particularly concern myself with CPP, only if a line infantry is showing a particularly low CV do I pull it back to rest up and accumulate CPP.

So with that all done now, going into turn 5 I bring more infantry to the line, and hopefully on turn 6 I can begin pushing north properly. Was considering using the one motorized corps for a north attack towards Leningrad from the Tallinn area, mostly just to put pressure on up there and draw units away from the south, but I think they'll be needed in the push from the south. Although there is something to be said for trying it... maybe put an alternate save file aside and give it a try later just to see how it goes.

Now I guess we see if I have put enough of this together to actually get somewhere this time. [:)]

[RobWorham]

Nice! Sounds like you’re making progress.

Don’t be afraid to save scum and try different things repeatedly, until you get to a situation you’re happy with. I treat these AI games as experimental areas, where I can test various ideas and learn the systems and mechanics of the game, until taking the plunge into the AI Grand Campaign, and one day vs a human..

[neuromancer]

I FINALLY GOT A DECENT BREAKTHROUGH!

I am so happy!

The AI made a rather significant error and put everything and it's dog in front of the Southern Advance, and left the back door practically unguarded, so 18th Army started to march in the back, the AI then had to redeploy - right after I had eaten 5 or 6 divisions (they allowed me to pocket them without any real effort on my part, so I decided to do it that way instead of just rout them as it was on the way of me doing something else and not slowing the advance). The AI then had to reorganize its line and I hit the flank with all three motorized corps one after the other and it came apart. If it had gone any better for me I would have isolated something like 20 Soviet divisions, as it is they are going to have to bail North or enjoy the hospitality of German POW camps (wouldn't recommend it, the food is terrible).

As a note, in the screenshot, there are 3 routed units sitting on Starya Russa south of Lake Ilmen, I decided there was no reason to leave them that way and moved the Totenkopf Motorized division east to capture it.

I'm wondering if the AI will try to isolate LVI corps (the one that charged north) as they are kinda alone, but with the state of the Soviet lines in that area, I think it would be a *really* bad idea and would probably just result in me isolating a bunch of Soviet units instead.




Yep... it did. Well, let see how this goes.

Well, it'll either not be a big deal, or a warning to others not to overextend yourself.

But... high risk, high reward.

[neuromancer]

Well, it didn't go nearly as well I hoped, although didn't turn into a total disaster.
It is a bloodbath though.
Mostly for the Soviets, but I'm not liking it either.

So I'd say going for Novgorod was overextending myself. Oh well.

Maybe on or before turn 10 it would have been okay with the state of the Soviets otherwise, but by 11 their reinforcements were pouring in.

[loki100]

aye this scenario is a constant high wire act, esp for the axis side - you think you've worked out a good balance pt between aggression and cautioun, pockets and combat generated routs and then ... [:@]

[neuromancer]

Yup, your foot slips and off the wire you go. SPLAT!

I think the tension is why I can keep trying it over and over again without becoming bored with it though.

So, completed it... again, and while I got further I didn't capture any more cities, but did gain more terrain.
I did end up making a pocket of about a dozen units, but it took until turn 14 to do it, and then it took 2 turns to mop them up as they were putting up an annoyingly strong fight despite being isolated and cut off from supply, and of course my units were damaged and I had few if any CPP on most of them.

The VPs are interesting, 2161 to 2666, which is 300 more for me, and 293 for the Soviets (over the previous try).
The difference is almost entirely from casualties; as said, it turned into a bloodbath in the end. My aircraft really took a beating as I kept trying to push forward, and mop up the last pocket.

Two primary thoughts from this time.
The first is psychology, if you can call it that when facing the AI. I was wondering why there were so many units down around Velki Luki, bad luck the AI just selected to send a bunch there, or what? It occurred to me that in Jibhung's AAR he had fast units threatening Pskov, some heading that way on turn one, more on turn two (I've seen it suggested to try and capture Pskov on turn 2 as well, that would be a coup if you can do it, but not sure how easy it would be).
With my game I was heading exclusively towards Tallinn and not threatening Pskov, the computer could move more units south towards VL, instead of forming the line just south of Pskov, this meant when I relieved the motorized corps I was already face to face with the Soviet Line, and had an extra 5 or 6 hex distance to cross when I started my main push on turn 6. So there is that, in the early part you want to make the AI think you are closer than you are. It would have some benefit against a human opponent as well because they don't want to get a bunch of units surrounded and cleaned up on the cheap in the early game when they are very much on the back foot.

I do have the alternate save though, seeing as how things got exciting in this game when 18th army crossed the Narva river behind the primary Soviet line, it makes me wonder if I should have tried to use the Motorized Corps I sent for Tallin, it could have really upset the AI's defensive posture a couple turns earlier. I had suggested that idea above, so I think I should give that a try tomorrow.

The second thought is how the heck to relieve the motorized corps quickly. On turn one Jlbhung temporarily motorizes an infantry division to grab Ventspils, I've found I can do the same thing with just a regiment. But it made me wonder, maybe temporarily motorize one or two divisions and sending them off after the motorized corps is a good idea. The APs aren't a concern, I rarely find I use them for much, although the scarcity of trucks in the Wehrmacht may be a bigger issue.
Of course also send one of the regular corps trudging after them immediately as well. "Hey guys, I need you to march about 500 kilometres in less than two weeks, lugging all your kit with you of course. That's not a problem right?"

It'll be interesting if I ever beat this scenario if I can then apply the lessons from here to the South-West Front scenario.

[loki100]

the good thing about SW Front is less trees ... the bad thing is the Soviets start stronger.

So you have less fixed constraints on mobility but more of an enemy who needs to be fought.

For what its worth, I actually think its easier to solve. For the first 3-5 turns it can seen as if you are constantly blocked but you tend to inflict high losses and really weakens the Soviets from about T6 onwards

[jlbhung]

Hi neuromancer, I have a non-gameplay suggestion :- try to play only 1-2 turns a day even for the small scenarios unless there is really little actions. Keeping a clear mind is important. Often good ideas and things we have missed suddenly come to our mind after a good sleep.

[carlkay58]

Congratulations on your improvement. It is looking like you are beginning to get a feel for the game now.

[RobWorham]

ORIGINAL: jlbhung

Hi neuromancer, I have a non-gameplay suggestion :- try to play only 1-2 turns a day even for the small scenarios unless there is really little actions. Keeping a clear mind is important. Often good ideas and things we have missed suddenly come to our mind after a good sleep.

I agree. I play an air phase in the morning, then a ground phase in the evening. I take screenies then think about my actions and plans on my commute to and from work, browsing the forums and pdf manual as I do so, to reinforce my knowledge.

I'm working on a checklist of potential things to check each turn, but it needs some work to tody it up...

[neuromancer]

That's actually a good point, i do tend to find my mind becoming fuzzier the longer I punch at it, although the progress of the last few days have been marathon sessions. [;)]
I do also find myself very much impatient to see how things turn out. The "just one more turn" condition.

Loki, I did think I was doing reasonably well the couple times I tried that scenario, but still getting that Soviet Minor Victory. I think I may have been mistaken in thinking Leningrad was the better scenario to train on though which is why I ended up sticking with it for so many tries. Oh well, c'est la guerre. [:D]

So I tried the alternative I mentioned, of coming at them from the North-West as well as the South. I was less than thrilled with the results. As some probably expected, the dispersal of the motorized corps weakened their overall punch. I did end up in roughly the same ground position as I did last time (a little better in some areas actually), but I think that was because of some better choices along the way. I never got my breakthrough like last time - I needed the third corps to exploit it once I got it - so there wasn't the same sort of bloodbath, and I didn't get as desperate to avoid an encirclement, but it still got somewhat ugly towards the end all the same.

The VPs from the previous attempt were 2161 to 2666, this time they were 1946 to 2580. Down 215 for me, and only 86 for it. Mostly due to casualty differences. They did almost as many to me, and I did less to them, probably because I didn't get that big pocket towards the end. So, yeah, not a great development.

Learned something though, you do need to apply pressure at multiple widely separated points so as to weaken the line at the primary advance.

I am also really starting to understand using the infantry to open a hole for the motorized corps, not for them to fight, but to simply advance. The problem comes in being able to concentrate enough infantry in one spot to get that done without leaving big holes for the Soviet armour/ mechanized/ cavalry forces to go charging through in turn! Had to deal with that several times in this run.

I want to find whoever taught the computer defence in depth and shake their hand, then slap them. [:'(]

[neuromancer]

Turn 6 - best position I've been to date, have an entire motorized corps sitting on Dno, which the Soviets fell back from in the face of overwhelming German military mastery!

Well, they left it after I beat up the forces in front of it, why they left is another matter.





(probably not) [:D]

I'm calling it a night, so we'll see tomorrow if my success continues, and if it will be enough.

[RobWorham]

Awesome! Don't be shy. Let's see some screenies!

[neuromancer]

So close, and yet so far.

So I ended up restarting after the above reported accomplishment, as I had played to turn 11 - twice, once from the initial run, and the other from waiting until turn 7 to push towards Dno, instead of on 6, the results were surprisingly similar, and no where near good enough.

I looked at the historical city capture dates and saw that I was way off the mark. So I started over with a fresh plan.

The motorized and panzer units were split into 3 groups, the third using L Corps; each had 1 panzer and 1 motorized infantry.
The 3 groups had their own objectives:

L Corps headed north to take Riga, accomplished on Turn 1.

XXXXI Corps headed North-East towards Pskov to take it, accomplished on Turn 3.
(shouldn't that be XLI Corps?)

And LVI Corps headed East to cut off a chunk of Soviet troops, and then take Velkie Lukoi, accomplished on turn 2. 290 Division was temporarily issued trucks and sent along for support.

After accomplishing their mission, L Corps cut east to join up (briefly) with XXXXI corps on turn 2, and then on turn 3 retruned to their original northward task and captured Parnu.
Meanwhile on Turn 3, 290 division sat on Velki Luki while 8th Panzer puttered North-East towards Adreapol. 36th Motorized was sent North-West to join XXXXI Corps.

On turn 4, Pskov was cut off (again) so I broke up the three units of XXXXI corps to isolate and destroy the Red Army 46th tank division (the unit that had cut off Pskov) out of pure spite. I needed to wait for infantry as I kept getting cut off, it was annoying, so figured this was a good way to spend the week.

8th Panzer had run into a bunch of units around Adreapol, I decided it was a waste to use a panzer division there and they withdrew to go to Pskov.

L Corps meanwhile pushed north and took Tallinn on turn 4, which I admit surprised me a little. 18th army's XXVI Corps (3 divisions) was following behind and one unit had garrisoned Parnu, while I Corps waa following behind them.

(side note: It wasn't until I started playing WW2 strategy games that I understood the "I Corps" - as in "Eye Corps" - references in MASH)

Turns 5 through 7 were spent consolidating as the Soviets were being pests around Pskov. Although XXVIII Corps of 16th army started to move on Adreapol, which was now undefended as Soviet troops were )apparently) rushing to the Pskov area and north of Lake Peipus (turned of FoW while pulling up the saves, they made a wall from North of Pskov, which then turned south at Dno, annoyingly - I see now that there was practically nothing between Velki Luki and Staraya Russa - although with all that Marsh and Forest I probably couldn't have gotten far before the Soviet Line was corrected... which they did on Turn 7).

With the benefit of hindsight, and no FoW, I maybe should have tried attacking on Turn 7, not everyone was in position, and CPP numbers weren't the best, but by turn 8 the Soviets had their lines better organized, and deployed in a defense in depth stance. If I had punched through on 7 I could have grabbed Dno and Luga with relative ease... but possibly risked getting cut off and all the mess that entails.

Anyway, turn 8... ATTACK!

Even with defense in depth I smash the Soviet units aside, and make a pretty impressive breakthrough.

Start of Turn 9:


A lot of those units inside the giant thumb there are regiment sized. I had grabbed Luga, Novgorod was within easy reach, and Dno was empty.
On turn 9 I consolidate, kick the Soviets away from Novgorod (although didn't have the MP to take it) and also capture Dno.

DOH! Looking at the save for the beginning of Turn 10 without FoW I see that the Soviets had pulled 3 hexes back from the top of the thumb, and were pretty thin. The biggest concentration of their forces were all to the East, especially on the way to Staraya Russa (actually, 1 hex south, the path along the south edge of Lake Ilmen was clear). IIRC my recon flights hadn't been doing so well and flying a long way, so I *only* did recon to the East and West, not the North. I expected this wall of Soviet units to be sitting there in the North so didn't even try. I rested most of the units on turn 10 and started pushing one motorized corps, 2 infantry divisions from the infantry Sturmkorps assigned to 4th Panzer, and everyone from 16th Army I could spare, all East towards SR and Valdai.

Again with the benefit of hindsight and no FoW, this was completely wrong. I should have pushed North immediately, smashed the weak line, and gotten well in range of the important objectives in the North. The units around SR and along the Narva River would have pulled hack on their own, so the last few turns would have still been a slog but with me at least 4 hexes closer to the objectives when I started.

[neuromancer]

So... anyway... things progress much more slowly after this, I get close, but not close enough. At the end of the game I have captured Oranienbaum (through brute force with two corps ftom 18th Army hitting it) and get one hex away from Shlisselburg but can't take it.



Oops, should have turned off the Logistics overlay, sorry about that.

[neuromancer]

Oh yes, and I did capture Vadai as well.

But... i still ended up a dollar short.

Didn't help I wasn't paying attention one turn and let a bunch of bombers get killed (99 in one turn) so that was a bunch of free points for the Soviets.
Looks like I was flying without fighter escort... idiot.



323 points. Relatively close, but needed to flip at least 2 more cities - or of the right cities - and not lose that pile of planes in one turn.

It's funny though, before I started writing this post mortem (or maybe its more accurately an Inquest at this point) I was trying to think of what I could have done differently, but now I think that what I should have simply done different was push north on Turn 10. I do attack on Turn 11, but the extra turn means they accumulate more CPP of their own, better organize their line, AND fell back another hex or two meaning I had to go even further to make contact. I also shouldn't have diverted the one motorized corps towards the East.

I was going to say "meh... good enough" on this one and going to the SW - after getting so close and still failing I was a bit fatigued - but I'm thinking now maybe I should go back to turn 10 and try again, this time pushing north right away and bringing the other motorized corps up behind, just leave the East to the infantry, by the end of the game they had largely abandoned it and I might be able to get as far as Valdai anyway.

Maybe I'll do that tomorrow.

Also funny, starting turn 13 as a bunch of units get pulled, I throw caution to the wind and start slamming against anything I think I can make it through (there may have been a little save scumming going on at this point...) but on turn 10 I was still being relatively cautious.

But the early game success was by taking big risks... it is really hard to know when to take that risk, and when not to. Not flying recon in the right area when you should have sure doesn't help.