Steel Panthers World At War v6.0

David Heath · Post by **David Heath** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 9:48 am

Yes you read right, we have been really working hard since v4.5 to get a better infantry - squad operations into SPWaW.
The squad light machine gun in Steel Panthers has always been of marginal use, because of the way rifles were handled. Rifles have been able to achieve kills at range, usually more frequently than the light machine gun. In World War II, the squad was generally designed around the light machine gun and the firepower from that single weapon usually equaled or exceeded the combined power of all the rifles in the squad.

Version 5.0+ tried to correct that design flaw, by reducing the effective firepower of the rifles. As a by-product, other weapons were inadvertently affected. In what will now become SPWaW v6.0 the infantry combat system has been completely overhauled. The game fun factor is there again but gamers still require a greater care in the tactics used for infantry combat and is, at the same time, more realistic.

In the upcoming release, players will find the following:

1) Rifles will be effective to a range of about 200 yards. Beyond 350 yards they will only be useful for suppression fire.

2) Squad light machine guns will be effective to a range of about 400 yards. Beyond 500 yards they will only be useful for suppression fire.

3) Medium and heavy crew served machine guns will be effective to a range of about 500 yards. At ranges of 300 to 500 hundred yards they can produce severe casualties against moving infantry. Beyond 750 yards they will be useful for suppression fire. This weapon is now a real killer.

4) Armored fighting vehicle machine guns will be effective to a range of 200 to 500 yards, depending on the type and placement of the machine gun. If the vehicle is armed with a small bore cannon of 37mm or less, it will be useful for the player to turn off the main gun and use the coaxial machine gun at ranges greater than 200 yards and less than 500 yards, as at ranges greater than 200 yards the crew must take an experience check before it can fire the coaxial machine gun and at ranges of greater than 500 yards the cannon may be more accurate than the coaxial machine gun.

5) Artillery is now slightly more effective than in version 5.1.

6) Small units, of 4 men or less, are still size zero for spotting purposes, but are now size one for purposes of being hit and damaged. This means they are difficult to spot, but once spotted, are no harder to kill than normal units. The exception to this is the sniper, who is still quite difficult to spot and kill.

7) Terrain cover has been reworked and is now of significantly greater importance. The player should always keep soft targets, such as guns and infantry in the best cover available. The difference to hit a target in good cover can be of an order of magnitude ten. Soft units in cover now take a good deal fewer casualties.

8) For soft targets, movement is a serious danger. Especially, if moving in the open and within effective range of the attacking weapon. The player will need to move slowly and stay in good cover. A crewed machine gun 300 yards away may kill 6 or more men in a single shot, when firing against a squad moving in the open.

9) Infantry are now harder to spot if 250 yards or more away and harder still, if 750 yards or more away.

10) Catastrophic destruction of buildings will now occur less frequently and require larger bore ordinance to bring them down. This allows greater use as cover.

11) Bridges are now much harder to destroy, especially stone bridges, for which you need artillery of 170mm or greater, a bomb or a satchel charge.

12) The ratio for troop purchase points has been changed from 1:1 to meeting engagements, 1.5:1 for advance missions and 2:1 for assaults to 1:1 for meeting engagements, 2:1 for advance missions and 3:1 for assaults. The increased effectiveness of cover and the disadvantage gained by moving units necessitates greater forces when attacking.

13) The to hit chance displayed in the data box, after a unit has fired, has been recalculated for rifles and sub-machine pistols, when those weapons are in slot one. The value no longer needs to be multiplied by the number of men in the squad. So, now if the chance displayed is 15%, that is the chance for all men in the squad combined, to hit. Please note that since the men in the target receive a saving throw against the fire, they may still sometimes go to ground and take no casualties.

14) Victory Point Change - This is a big change -- for some reason, killed men have always been counted as only 1 victory point, no matter what unit they are from or what their unit cost is. In order to make the set unit costs (and increased unit costs, like general rommel in your example) be counted, killed infantry units are now counted at their unit cost in victory points. Partially-killed units are worth the proper proportional amount.

We now have it working and it seems to really answer just about everyones desires. So maybe we have a a little surprise for you real soon.

Thanks for your Support.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 10:07 am

I'm impressed - these changes sound great! What I'm really impressed by, though, is the way you continue to work on SPWAW while needing to get Combat Leader done. As usual, you somehow get it ALL done!

mr172 · Post by **mr172** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 10:34 am

Chapeau David!
If all could be done we run the longest yard and touch down the perfect game in SP's history.
Massimo

Spellbinder · Post by **Spellbinder** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 11:49 am

Hi David, et all at Matrix,
WOW I'm deeply impressed! This will be the ultimate gaming experience! :p
One question/suggestion though:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
8) For soft targets, movement is a serious danger. Especially, if moving in the open and within effective range of the attacking weapon. The player will need to move slowly and stay in good cover. A crewed machine gun 300 yards away may kill 6 or more men in a single shot, when firing against a squad moving in the open.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How about including something like an "Assault Move"? The squad moves only one hex, anounces this and therefore receives some extra cover,TEM - just like the ASL thingee.
The way moving Infantry is handeled right now, they suffere severe casualities, no matter how far/fast they move if they are hit in the first hex. So I suppose an AM Option would help a little bit.
Don't you think?
Anyway, Thank you very much for this great game - I love it! :rolleyes:
Ciao
Klaus, aka Spellbinder

BomBeer · Post by **BomBeer** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 12:21 pm

V.6 sounds Fantastic

Thanks for the Great work your putting into this Great Game.

AlvinS · Post by **AlvinS** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:01 pm

Sounds Great. You guys are incredible! Question: Will the upgrade to 6.0 have an effect on the current Desert Fox Mega Campaign? I have heard that sometimes scenarios have to be modified and tested to work in a newer version and was wondering if the Mega Campaign is the same way.

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:23 pm

I used to swith all the heavy MGs to regular infantry squads due to its lack of hitting power. Guess I will have to changes my tactic now

waynef · Post by **waynef** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:25 pm

All I can say is...WOW

and

THANK YOU

6.0 sounds great.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:48 pm

Moving only one hex IS an assault move. the way it is right now, moving more than 1 hex is "fully vulnerable" (minus your cover) = moving only one hex divides that by 3 and being stationary cut that in half again (or full/6) So if a series of fire would normally kill 6 moving in the open it would only kill 2 moving cauiously and 1 is "in the dirt".

One of the big effects we've added is widening the "dynamic range" of combat results substatially. THe thing that prompted this was my exasperation with the 'one casualtied to death' syndrome where fire seemed to do one casualty about half the time, no matter what cover you were in or what you were doing.

Mike Wood took up the cause and in a very short time, we made some excellent changes to bring infantry combat up to the same high level as armor combat! The significant change this has made prompted David to make the "major version number" switch.

Fans of the ASL board game will find a lot fo the excitement of infantry combat in that game is now here, as you cringe with each chot when your troops are vulnerable, hoping you don't get our equivalent of a "KIA" die roll...or praying for it if your beleaguered Marines spot another platoon of Japanese screaming toward them

[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 5:59 pm

Sounds great. how soon can we expect 6.0?

MalleusDei · Post by **MalleusDei** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 6:53 pm

Sounds great! Does it include expanded OOB's and spotter planes?

Would you consider expanding the choices in generated battles for 6.0? Optional switches to override the selection of the type of battle (regardless of relative points), expanded battle lengths (why not a 300 turn infantry battle on a big city map?), more control over randomly generated maps, and more control over VP hexes would be useful things to have and would improve game enjoyment. In fact, the more control that you can give us on generated battles the better, so that we can tailor a battle to taste and time available and still have the wonderful elements of surprise and mystery that are missing from edited scenarios and from scenarios that we have played before.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 7:18 pm

The above lists the changes that will be in the new version. There is a group that is goign through the OOBs cleaning up inconsistencies and typos. No spotter planes.

For the other stuff you will have to wait for the Combat Leader series...

Not sure the release timeframe - likely "several weeks" but maybe sooner. It will be on the new Lost Victories Mega Campaign and will be a small patch for the next lot of Desert Fox (that has 5.3)

11Bravo · Post by **11Bravo** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 7:48 pm

Mein Gott!

When do you guys sleep? That version 6 will make a great game even better!

You guys are some of the hardest working, talented, and dedicated people I have come across in ANY field. Your company does the hard things (like customer service, and learning from mistakes) very, very well. You have a great team at Matrix!

Keep up the great work. I really enjoy playing your fine game, and look forward to your new products.

General Mayhem · Post by **General Mayhem** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 7:48 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:

One of the big effects we've added is widening the "dynamic range" of combat results substatially. THe thing that prompted this was my exasperation with the 'one casualtied to death' syndrome where fire seemed to do one casualty about half the time, no matter what cover you were in or what you were doing.

Mike Wood took up the cause and in a very short time, we made some excellent changes to bring infantry combat up to the same high level as armor combat! The significant change this has made prompted David to make the "major version number" switch.

Fans of the ASL board game will find a lot fo the excitement of infantry combat in that game is now here, as you cringe with each chot when your troops are vulnerable, hoping you don't get our equivalent of a "KIA" die roll...or praying for it if your beleaguered Marines spot another platoon of Japanese screaming toward them

[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

Uh, I've played such games and personally
I think it is a BAD idea. There is no way one
can well control the ranges. Nor do they
create situations that one could understand.

It easily comes to point where when majority
of players just start to run squads to some
places and wait to lucky shot to from them
to swipe enemy off. If you make chance too
small, it doesn't make a diffrence and
nobody notices it. If you make it too big,
then system starts to look like double or nothing.
In other words, it can create exiting randomnes, but it can also creates situations which are hard to justify, which frustrate a lot and give reward to one who just shoots a lot and doesn't think a lot.
Don't get me wrong, it's exiting at first, but it does get's awfully tiresome in long
run and more one plays, less charming the
feature is. Especially if you play against
computer.

Atleast I've not felt need to get back to games with such features in game system, altough they were LOT of fun at first.

BigDuke66 · Post by **BigDuke66** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:43 pm

@ Paul & David:

How is it with Reverse Gear for Vehicles?

And Amo choosing, so you could save the good Babes for the tough Guys?

Is Cover like Walls etc. still handled that way that the Unit is in Cover no matter from witch side they get shot at?

BruceAZ · Post by **BruceAZ** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 9:21 pm

Originally posted by waynef:
All I can say is...WOW

and

THANK YOU

6.0 sounds great.

Ditto...

Larry W. Wilson · Post by **Larry W. Wilson** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 9:37 pm

I am so impressed with the Matrix team. Your dedication is not found in any other group in the gaming business. It is obvious that you genuinely care about SPWAW and us grognards who play. I hope you guys never lose you zeal and passion for both historical accuracy and just plain ol' fun. I would also like to say that I am grateful that the vast majority of the members of this forum appear to be a "cut above" what one finds in other forums. Even when there are disagreements---the discussion usually stays on a civil level. Thanks to all who have worked so hard to give us an award winning game.

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 9:57 pm

I've watched you guys struggle with the infantry question through 5.2 then 5.3 - never quite reaching a satisfying stage...

Now you go and do this.

WOW. Words fail. All I can say is thanks for your dogged pursuit of perfection...

It continues to be a true delight every time I get to sit at the computer and play/escape...

Part of the fun is wondering what you'll come up with next...

I got to fight T95 GMCs against King and Jagd Tigers the other night - Woohoo! - no other game I know of offers this kind of fun...

And I'm looking forward to adding to my MC collection and providing you with some legal tender to do more good work with and show real gratitude for your efforts.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 10:03 pm

Most of us at Matrix catnap in front of this one-eyed monster machine, with an occasional visit from the family and a demand that a bath be taken at once

Phone calls at 2 or 3AM between us are the rule, not the exception.

Wild Bill

Coachace · Post by **Coachace** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 10:22 pm

Matrix guys,
I don't think the game will ever really be realistic. I mean, how do you get the GI troop morale boost that they really got when they went on leave and spent their $$ on some bordello? How will you ever simulate the effects poor hygene had on the foot soldiers' feet??

Just kidding!! SPWAW is becoming more and more like ASL. However, since it will take MUCH longer than a couple of weeks to tire of MC 5.3, I'll admit that I can just barely wait for the nect MC.