Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory conditions

[Nami Koshino]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo


Saying Jap is short for Japanese. 1 syllable verses 3 syllable(s).

As someone of Japanese descent myself I would prefer you use the latter. I've heard the "short term" said with invective enough in life to learn not to like it even in print form.

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: Nami Koshino


As someone of Japanese descent myself I would prefer you use the latter. I've heard the "short term" said with invective enough in life to learn not to like it even in print form.

I brought this up the last few days in this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5014702

ElvisJjonesRambo is not the only offender here - though he is the most prolific. (He literally uses either the term "Japs" or "Nips" on every thread Japan is involved; and I suspect there are literally over a hundred instances where such terms appear from him alone.)

The most charitable inference I can make is that he was born in an era when racist language was condoned in most communities.

But there is no excuse for the mods to let this fester on for so long, and I encourage you confront them about this, rather than individual posters. It's frankly not even good for business, because the environment on this forum is so toxic that it would keep Asian customers away. (I know I certainly would not have bought the game if I knew that the devs condone racism.)

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Brother Alcibiades73,

Came back to this thread to post about my Yankee sub strategy I'm using in a current game.

What in the world? Saying Japs is bad? I use the word Jap and I use the word Japanese, quicker to type.
Saying Jap is short for Japanese. 1 syllable verses 3 syllable(s).

It's not a big deal to me, if you want me to use Japanese, I'll type out Japanese, it's only 5 more characters. There a list/link of 2021 words that I shouldn't be typing please? Dude, I haven't been on the Internet Forums in over 10+ years. Check the logs. I'm here to play games, I came here because of Covid-19.

Regards,
-ElvisJJonesRambo

Words take on new connotations and even change their meanings altogether with time. Whereas the term "Jap" may have been simply a common shorthand for Japanese early last century, it is no longer so today. It is clearly a racial slur, not different from, say, the "n-" word to describe blacks. Check any reputable source material. I find it frankly incredible that you did not know this - especially because you use the term "Nips" liberally, too.

[Alcibiades73]

By the way, just as the term "Jap" began as a short form for "Japanese," so did the term "Chink" from "Chinese" and "Guk" from "Hanguk" (Korea in its native language). Would you also say that "Chink" and "Guk" are both absent racist undertones?

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Brother Alcibiades73,

As stated, I will type out the entire word, Japanese, upon request. In the year 2021, the word for Japanese, is still Japanese. It does not bother me to type out 5 more characters.

Please do not accuse me falsely other words I have not used.

Regards,
-EJR

[wobbleguts]

Wow. This thread is getting interesting!

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Brother Alcibiades73,

Are there any other words I use, that are not supposed to be used?

Example: I have used the words Yanks, Yankees, Brits, Scots, Cannuks, Ivan, GI, Joe, Gerry, Aussies, Reds, French, Greeks, Euro, Eastern Euros, etc.

Regards.
-EJR

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Brother Alcibiades73,

As stated, I will type out the entire word, Japanese, upon request. In the year 2021, the word for Japanese, is still Japanese. It does not bother me to type out 5 more characters.

Please do not accuse me falsely other words I have not used.

Regards,
-EJR

I did not accuse you of using words such as "Chinks" or " Guks." My point is rather to ask whether you find those terms equally acceptable as "Japs" or "Nips," because they, too, are short hands for originally innocuous words, since that is your defense/rationalization for constantly using "Japs" and "Nips."

[wobbleguts]

Good point. Well ElvisJJonesRambo what is your response?

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Brother Alcibiades,

Thank you for clarifying. Nice to meet you by the way

Not sure if you're aware, but in the United States, alot of debates are currently going on with Mascots, the names of sport's teams.

The NFL (National Football League), not to be confused with European Soccer (or football, like Manchester United league) change long time team "Washington Football Team". There a huge list of College Mascots and Professional Mascots in all sports. The NHL (National Hockey League) has Canadian team mascots and nicknames that people sometimes get upset about. Also, the actual design.

Doesn't bother me, might make my old Football, Basketball, Hockey and Baseball cards worth more money to collectors.

Regards,
-Legend

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Brother Alcibiades73,

Are there any other words I use, that are not supposed to be used?

Example: I have used the words Yanks, Yankees, Brits, Scots, Cannuks, Ivan, GI, Joe, Gerry, Aussies, Reds, French, Greeks, Euro, Eastern Euros, etc.

Regards.
-EJR

I am not sure your intent in asking your question here. You could be asking earnestly, or you could be sarcastic.

If you are being earnest: I am just a poster, and my objections were primarily directed toward the forum mods. It is their job to police the forum and tell you what is not permissible. And while they have been egregiously negligent in this respect, I hope things improve. If it does not, then I will seek different avenues for redress.

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Brother Alcibiades,

Thank you for clarifying. Nice to meet you by the way

Not sure if you're aware, but in the United States, alot of debates are currently going on with Mascots, the names of sport's teams.

The NFL (National Football League), not to be confused with European Soccer (or football, like Manchester United league) change long time team "Washington Football Team". There a huge list of College Mascots and Professional Mascots in all sports. The NHL (National Hockey League) has Canadian team mascots and nicknames that people sometimes get upset about. Also, the actual design.

Doesn't bother me, might make my old Football, Basketball, Hockey and Baseball cards worth more money to collectors.

Regards,
-Legend

Yes, and it is telling that even Snyder - the most stubborn and self-absorbed among major team sports owners - finally got rid of the name "Redskins."

Pivoting a bit, look, I am not one of those Leftist politically correct warriors. Quite the opposite. But racism is a serious matter, words do matter, and I have had searing experiences with the very words you so casually bandy around.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Brother Alcibiades73,

Please let me know any words. I say "Aussies" all the time. I have zero problem typing out Australians, except for the fact I never spell it right & it's not the easy on a QWERTY keyboard. I'm guessing, maybe I should type it out.

Someone from a public event (in person, not here), got mad when I said Russians instead of Soviets when talking about Rocky III. It's a movie from the 1980s.

-Regards,
-EJR

[BaggieMania]

While i agree that we should respect our fellow gamers and those who use these forums on a regular basis, I also do not want it personally to become a place where we focus on singular words who can have negative meanings in todays world. When we are mostly, at least in my case, using terms for cultures and nationalites in an era of mankind that was the most destructive we have ever seen on this planet, with rascism and genocide almost the norm. t
Therefore i generally see it as part of the roleplaying part. I know that many of use roleplay while in game, I go from liberating the world from dirty commies and decadent democracies (when playing Axis) to destroying the face of fascism and nazism (when playing the allies) to me that is part of putting ourselves in their shoes from a gaming perspective only. That is different from saying things with the intent to put down or marginalize anyone in todays world. To my best knowledge Elvis just love the roleplay and I am quite certain that does not reflect on how he view people in todays world. To me intent and context is everything otherwise we would suddenly have a truckload of words we can never use because some rednecked hillbillies used it to underline their ignorance. (apologies to the low income groups of people living in the Appalachian mountains ! )

[wobbleguts]

I would like to add something to hopefully smooth the waters (and probably make things worse). I am originally from the UK. Growing up there was a word used by skinheads and racists to describe anyone descended from the sub-continent as 'Paki'. A derogatory term of abuse used by scum to intimidate 'immigrants'. Even as a child I knew this was a horrible word of disgust and disdain.

As an adult, I moved to Australia and was astonished to hear this term used by everyone, including the TV,radio and newspapers - especially when their cricket team comes to play. 'Pakis have chosen to bat', 'pakis have a lot of support in the ground' etc. In Australia, the term Paki has no racist connotations at all - it just means a number of Pakistanis. If an Australian says Paki - it ain't racist.

I don't think ElvisJjonesRambo was being racist. I also say 'Japs'. It means a number of Japanese and is easier to type. Not racist at all. If a real racist did start posting here, I don't think they would last long.

And don't forget about the French! They call the English 'roastbif' because we go over and get sun burnt on their beaches. That is a disgusting slur. They should be thankful we go there because the beaches stink of garlic and are covered with rabid snails. And there's no soap in the hotels, just soggy soft cheese. France is a disgusting country and they are racist!

[DrZom]

ORIGINAL: Nami Koshino

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo


Saying Jap is short for Japanese. 1 syllable verses 3 syllable(s).

As someone of Japanese descent myself I would prefer you use the latter. I've heard the "short term" said with invective enough in life to learn not to like it even in print form.

Doesn't context matter? I do not mean to be insensitive, but growing up right after the War the term Japs was just the common descriptor for the Japanese people. It did not in itself carry a negative connotation, unless another term was used to modify it. So for me and possibly other old farts like me, within the context of a WW2 game using the term Jap seems appropriate American colloquialism... as does the term Kraut.

No intent to defame the Japanese or the German people.

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts

I would like to add something to hopefully smooth the waters (and probably make things worse). I am originally from the UK. Growing up there was a word used by skinheads and racists to describe anyone descended from the sub-continent as 'Paki'. A derogatory term of abuse used by scum to intimidate 'immigrants'. Even as a child I knew this was a horrible word of disgust and disdain.

As an adult, I moved to Australia and was astonished to hear this term used by everyone, including the TV,radio and newspapers - especially when their cricket team comes to play. 'Pakis have chosen to bat', 'pakis have a lot of support in the ground' etc. In Australia, the term Paki has no racist connotations at all - it just means a number of Pakistanis. If an Australian says Paki - it ain't racist.

I don't think ElvisJjonesRambo was being racist. I also say 'Japs'. It means a number of Japanese and is easier to type. Not racist at all. If a real racist did start posting here, I don't think they would last long.

And don't forget about the French! They call the English 'roastbif' because we go over and get sun burnt on their beaches. That is a disgusting slur. They should be thankful we go there because the beaches stink of garlic and are covered with rabid snails. And there's no soap in the hotels, just rancid soft cheese. France is a disgusting country and they are racist!

You bring up several points, so let me address each of them apart:

First sure, words - as is the case with everything in life (or almost everything) - must be interpreted in context. Hence, what may appear as a racial slur in one context is not in another. An example par excellence is the use of the "n-" word. It's apparently a term of endearment among blacks, so usually it is okay for blacks to use this term in American discourse - though even this is rapidly changing today. So, there is no disagreement regarding the interpretive principle that context is king.

Second, nonetheless, as I've reiterated many times, the terms "Japs" and "Nips" - while perhaps initially more descriptive than pejorative - are incontestably considered racial slurs in contemporary American context. You can look up just about every reputable reference source for confirmation. Moreover, I have personal experiences where the term was used against me as a racial pejorative; and you've read that experience echoed by another poster on this thread. There should be no debate about "Japs" and "Nips." (Incidentally, I recall that MacArthur banned the use of the term "guks" during the Korean War to not offend local sensibilities. And Dougout Doug was not exactly the most progressive personality at the time. So there is ample evidence that these terms were understood as racial slurs even near the moment of their inception.)

Third, as for the said poster's intent, I have a hard time agreeing with you for at least three reasons. First, unless you have been living with the Aleuts in an igloo, it is difficult for any reasonably well-informed person in the United States not to know the terms "Japs" and "Nips" are racial slurs. Second, the term "Nips" have a particularly more and longer-standing racist undertones than does the term "Japs," and the poster resorts to it often, too. Third, he seems to continue to make a joke of it. For instance, he asks me sardonically whether terms such as "GI Joes" should be prohibited as well. Really? You are equating "GI Joes" and "Japs" or "Nips"? How are we supposed to take his intent in a benign way?

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: DrZom


Doesn't context matter? I do not mean to be insensitive, but growing up right after the War the term Japs was just the common descriptor for the Japanese people. It did not in itself carry a negative connotation, unless another term was used to modify it. So for me and possibly other old farts like me, within the context of a WW2 game using the term Jap seems appropriate American colloquialism... as does the term Kraut.

No intent to defame the Japanese or the German people.

Yes, this is a legitimate point, and I specifically said elsewhere that I suspect the poster is an older gentleman who grew up in a time where the term "Japs" or "Nips" were more acceptable to utter in American discourse. But should you not endeavor to change with the context?

Let's put up a similar hypothetical: Someone who grew up in the American South in the same period as your formative years would have lived in an environment where the "n-" word was as common in the air as oxygen. Should that person continue to be permitted to post the "n-" word on this forum, simply because he did not mean any harm?

I would safely guess that the moderators of the forum would have immediately acted - unlike the present case. And we know why, and we know why the moderators did not act in the present case.

[Alcibiades73]

Also, please stop posing false equivalences in general. Talk to me when Germans were put in concentration camps en masse in the U.S. as were the Japanese during World War II; talk to me when there is continuing anti-German violence and harassing rhetoric today. Yes, racism is insidious in all forms. But racist rhetoric against threatened racial minorities by the dominant racial majority and the vice versa are not the same. To wax Burkean, context is sovereign. At the risk of sounding like a race warrior that I am not (I edited an infamous conservative newspaper in college), this point should be understood.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Doctor Alcibiades73,

From your own typings, appears you're a trained, educated, literature man. Congrats. Or should I call you just an Earthling and leave gender out it in the year 2021.
Repeat, it's May 2021.
Come to think of it, would you like to make a stink about the use of the number "2021" to count years and the reasoning behind the integer 2021, when I posted May 2021? Maybe your using a different calendar. Don't the Chinese, Mayans, and Jewish people use a different calendar. Am I racist for using my brain to point out there are different calendars? The romance languages (Spanish as one example) derived from Latin use gender masculine/feminine for their word endings, does that make all peoples using those languages misogynists?

Rather than dredge every negative experience you've had in your life & somehow attach that to me, lets just stick with the here & now.
Using the word "The Japs" instead of "Japanese" seems to bother you. I've already stated, it's no big deal to type out Japanese, it's just 5 more characters and < 1 second to do so. When I go out for food and say "Lets go out for Jap(anese) food, you are still welcome to come along. I'm a nice guy. We could have sushi & drinks. By the way, checking the thread, I posted on my favorite golfer is Hideki Matsuyama. I legally bet 50 American dollars, paid 25 to 1 odds. Am I a secret racist for saying this?

How about you stop giving your Opinion, your Thesis, your Resume, Dissertation, Personal Experience, Interpretation of History, etc. and presenting that as absolute truth.

Back to the here & now. Lets keep this simple. What words can and cannot be typed on a QWERTY board?

Kindly as I can type to you, with respect,
-ElvisJJonesRambo