TOE Settings for Germans 41

[king171717]

What have you guys limited for TOE for the Germans? JW

[Bamilus]

Nothing but I know some people reduce TOE% for Panzers starting in December when Soviet winter buffs and counter-offensive start. Mainly because the Panzers arent good at defending in blizzard.

[king171717]

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Nothing but I know some people reduce TOE% for Panzers starting in December when Soviet winter buffs and counter-offensive start. Mainly because the Panzers arent good at defending in blizzard.

Interesting, you dont limit lower morale inf div so the higher morale inf div get more reinforcements.

[Bamilus]

ORIGINAL: king171717

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Nothing but I know some people reduce TOE% for Panzers starting in December when Soviet winter buffs and counter-offensive start. Mainly because the Panzers arent good at defending in blizzard.

Interesting, you dont limit lower morale inf div so the higher morale inf div get more reinforcements.

I'd manage that more via unit supply and depot priority settings and also by setting higher morale units to refit (preferably on a depot with an HQ to boost capacity). To my knowledge and experience, especially for infantry divisions, the main constraint in winter 41/42 is getting the supplies/replacements to the front rather than being limited by the manpower/ground elements not being available in the pool. So you really shouldn't need to change TOE for infantry divisions that early.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Nothing but I know some people reduce TOE% for Panzers starting in December when Soviet winter buffs and counter-offensive start. Mainly because the Panzers arent good at defending in blizzard.

Folks do this not because Panzers are bad in a blizzard but because AFV losses are going to be higher in winter; more AFV breakdowns and losses through movement, so in many cases you may be better off just letting AFVs accumulate in the pool and pull them out in March/April.

In Winter, I would lean more heavily on Motorized Infantry units if you need something mobile. Another tactic is to keep Panzers in a city on RESERVE; they won't have the same problems if they stay in a city, but that limits use

[king171717]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Nothing but I know some people reduce TOE% for Panzers starting in December when Soviet winter buffs and counter-offensive start. Mainly because the Panzers arent good at defending in blizzard.

Folks do this not because Panzers are bad in a blizzard but because AFV losses are going to be higher in winter; more AFV breakdowns and losses through movement, so in many cases you may be better off just letting AFVs accumulate in the pool and pull them out in March/April.

In Winter, I would lean more heavily on Motorized Infantry units if you need something mobile. Another tactic is to keep Panzers in a city on RESERVE; they won't have the same problems if they stay in a city, but that limits use

Well said

[Bamilus]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Nothing but I know some people reduce TOE% for Panzers starting in December when Soviet winter buffs and counter-offensive start. Mainly because the Panzers arent good at defending in blizzard.

Folks do this not because Panzers are bad in a blizzard but because AFV losses are going to be higher in winter; more AFV breakdowns and losses through movement, so in many cases you may be better off just letting AFVs accumulate in the pool and pull them out in March/April.

In Winter, I would lean more heavily on Motorized Infantry units if you need something mobile. Another tactic is to keep Panzers in a city on RESERVE; they won't have the same problems if they stay in a city, but that limits use

Well, Blizzard impacts what elements get added to the battle and I've seen Panzer divisions take huge losses even in victories in Blizzard terrain. Your point is valid but Panzers are also not great in blizzard even at full strength. Also the rate that returns damaged AFV elements to the pool in heavy snow is 10% vs 22.5% in clear. Another reason not to use them in battle (or move them much).

[Zemke]

I try and not to use Panzer Divisions at all during the Blizzard turns. It is just way too costly. Frankly, I try and not to attack at all and move as little as possible. If I do attack, it is only for the most critical of circumstances. When Spring arrives, there are enough clear turns to "do a little Spring cleaning"!

[king171717]

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Nothing but I know some people reduce TOE% for Panzers starting in December when Soviet winter buffs and counter-offensive start. Mainly because the Panzers arent good at defending in blizzard.

Folks do this not because Panzers are bad in a blizzard but because AFV losses are going to be higher in winter; more AFV breakdowns and losses through movement, so in many cases you may be better off just letting AFVs accumulate in the pool and pull them out in March/April.

In Winter, I would lean more heavily on Motorized Infantry units if you need something mobile. Another tactic is to keep Panzers in a city on RESERVE; they won't have the same problems if they stay in a city, but that limits use

Well, Blizzard impacts what elements get added to the battle and I've seen Panzer divisions take huge losses even in victories in Blizzard terrain. Your point is valid but Panzers are also not great in blizzard even at full strength. Also the rate that returns damaged AFV elements to the pool in heavy snow is 10% vs 22.5% in clear. Another reason not to use them in battle (or move them much).

Ya u never want to use your panzers in the winter. If u are things would have to be really rough. But u limit toe of panzers so they don’t get attrition during winter. Send those new tanks in spring

[loudscott]

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Also the rate that returns damaged AFV elements to the pool in heavy snow is 10% vs 22.5% in clear. Another reason not to use them in battle (or move them much).

Bamilus, where did you see these percentages?

Thanks

[Bamilus]

26.1.4 in manual

[Laits]

So, why don't sending these panzers in Balkan or Western TB?
If you don't use them in blizzard, it could be interesting gaining AP and VP this way.

[Bamilus]

ORIGINAL: Laits

So, why don't sending these panzers in Balkan or Western TB?
If you don't use them in blizzard, it could be interesting gaining AP and VP this way.

Because without enhanced TB you can never get them back and right now the theatre boxes are a "win more" mechanic. You get 1 AP and 1VP a turn, at most, from each theater box. The rewards aren't worth the investment.

It's best to keep panzers on map as a backup, if needed, but off front lines. You can then easily have them ready to move for your spring/summer 42 offensive.

[Omat]

Hello

You can move them back to germany (no TB) if you like

ORIGINAL: Laits

So, why don't sending these panzers in Balkan or Western TB?
If you don't use them in blizzard, it could be interesting gaining AP and VP this way.

[TheFerret]

ORIGINAL: Laits

So, why don't sending these panzers in Balkan or Western TB?
If you don't use them in blizzard, it could be interesting gaining AP and VP this way.

This is a valid strategy with enhanced TB control on, especially sending them to western Europe to free up infantry divisions for Russia sooner.

There is a big drawback, though - you'll want them back for the 1942 offensive, and even if you send them via the reserve box, transfers can only be placed in 1941 German-controlled territory. Then you have to either drive them or rail them to the front, and neither is a good option: if you drive them they'll arrive several turns later, low on fuel, with zero CPP and high fatigue, possibly with attrition losses; if you rail them, they take up a ton of freight, and the spring 1942 rail network still isn't robust enough to be able to transport multiple armored divisions to the front and also fulfill supply and replacement needs for the units already there.

Since you can't go below 90% in a theater box, if you exchanged armored divisions for extra infantry, you may have to start the process of exchanging them back early - first the infantry needs to transfer back to western Europe (2 turns), then the armor can transfer to the map (2 turns), then you get the armor to its staging areas near the front (2-3 turns), then you probably want to let it resupply, rebuild CPP and get rid of fatigue (2-3 turns). So if you're looking to launch the offensive in the first week of June, you'll want to start the process of getting your armor back in early April, even late March if you want to have your assault armies in place to take advantage of any favorable weather in May.

[Laits]

ORIGINAL: TheFerret

ORIGINAL: Laits

So, why don't sending these panzers in Balkan or Western TB?
If you don't use them in blizzard, it could be interesting gaining AP and VP this way.

This is a valid strategy with enhanced TB control on, especially sending them to western Europe to free up infantry divisions for Russia sooner.

There is a big drawback, though - you'll want them back for the 1942 offensive, and even if you send them via the reserve box, transfers can only be placed in 1941 German-controlled territory. Then you have to either drive them or rail them to the front, and neither is a good option: if you drive them they'll arrive several turns later, low on fuel, with zero CPP and high fatigue, possibly with attrition losses; if you rail them, they take up a ton of freight, and the spring 1942 rail network still isn't robust enough to be able to transport multiple armored divisions to the front and also fulfill supply and replacement needs for the units already there.

Since you can't go below 90% in a theater box, if you exchanged armored divisions for extra infantry, you may have to start the process of exchanging them back early - first the infantry needs to transfer back to western Europe (2 turns), then the armor can transfer to the map (2 turns), then you get the armor to its staging areas near the front (2-3 turns), then you probably want to let it resupply, rebuild CPP and get rid of fatigue (2-3 turns). So if you're looking to launch the offensive in the first week of June, you'll want to start the process of getting your armor back in early April, even late March if you want to have your assault armies in place to take advantage of any favorable weather in May.

I agree with your analysis.
So if you plan carefully you can save some panzers and win some VP + AP. Doing this at least between December and March can be interesting. Sending them to Germany (like in WITE 1) seems a little useless as they sit idle while they could générateur the bonus points.

[Bamilus]

Well "sending to Germany" in WITE2 means sending to national reserve box which guarantees theyll get the most possible replacements as quickly as possible. TOE in other theater boxes is limited and replacements will be less. So if your panzer are in need of repair then national reserve would be best option (if you feel like you want to send them off map) but if theyre in decent shape then other TBs is fine.

[Q-Ball]

I am concerned though about opening up the Theater Boxes to full Axis control. The impact of this was not fully tested out, and I think there could be room for abuse here. We'll see how it goes.....

[Laits]

There are already some mechanisms preventing the players to abuse with the TB (like in WITW).
I'm quite confident.
I think there were much more abuses in WITE1 when the German player could rail its panzerarmees and elite infantry divisions to Germany during the blizzard thanks to an unrealistic logistic system.