The Pacific

[BigDuke66]

Yes to the Pacific Theater and a even bigger YES to a Campaign over there!

[CaptainBrian]

Originally posted by Panzerjaeger Hortlund:Or an american campaign. As far as I have understood no unit did more than one or two at the most invasions during the entire war. Perhaps I'm misstaken here, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I guess one could squeeze out 30-40 battles out of such a campaign including 4-5 opposed landings/invasions. [ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: Panzerjaeger Hortlund ][/QB]

The 1st Marine Division made four amphibious assaults during WWII. Two of these (Okinawa and Guadalcanal) developed into major follow on battles. The 1st MARDIV's assaults were as follows:

Guadalcanal (Aug 42)
New Britian (Nov 43)
Pelilieu (Sept 44)
Okinawa (April 45)

[CaptainBrian]

Originally posted by General Mayhem:


I think landings aren't so essential
actually. Far as I've understood, many
of them did go awry, and when there was
stiff opposition, it was almost slaughter...

On the other hand, I'm sure Japanese didn't
with each and every island take lot of defensive actions on the beach, but retreated to inlands. Please correct if I'm
wrong. Same to me is it historical or not.

True many amphib assaults took major casualties, but the Japanese and Germans NEVER repelled a Landing Force be it British, USA, USMC. Iwo Jima was the only battle in which the landing force suffered more casualties than the defenders. In 1944 the Japanese realized the futility of opposing landing forces at the high water mark and begin letting them land relatively unhindered and then forcing them to pay in blood for every subsuquent inch. This is vividly demonstrated at Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Basically the Japanese realized they could not win. The best they could hope for was to bleed the allies dry.

[General Mayhem]

Originally posted by Warrior:


Any scenario played as Japs, early in the war or late, gives wonderful opportunites to kill numerous Marine devils. There are no opponents more difficult than the Japs. Even the Russians weren't as fanatical.

[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]

Japanese were difficult to kill, not to
win. Because they didn't know how to lose,
they continued to fought despite they had lost. That's why US atom bombed Japan and
that's why Soviets treated them quite brutally.

That's also why I'm not so fond of their
troops. To me it anyway seems Japanese were
not really good tactically. Also I feel
bit ackward commanding troops who's greatest
asset is in situations, I mean banzai charges and fighting to last man, where I never want to end. For bit similar reasons, I do not play lot of Russians.

I'm not underestimating Japanese, I just say
their strenghs were misplaced and used more than one way.
To summarize it all up, I do not feel lot
of joy playing Japanese. Yeah, I know it is
just a game, but still units one can use reflect lot how they are ment to fight.

[BruceAZ_MatrixForum]

I really enjoy them. What I really like is to close the door to my office, shut off the lights and turn up the sound somewhat. You hear all the jungle noise, insects, steam, whatever and gives the battle a new demension. Besides, you KNOW how I like playing US Marines...

I have given some thought about designing a campaign about the Japanese assault on Malay with the fall of Singapore as the last battle. From the Japanese point of view. It sound sorta cool.

Before anybody jumps right into a fight with the Japanese, I would suggest you play some Jap scens or the Guadalcanal Campaign. They can be very tough.

Bruce
Semper Fi

[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: 5thRecon ]

[A_B]

Right now I'm leaning more towards the USMC campaign, throw in some ahistorical unit, and let that unit take part in the defence of the Philipines, then off to bold invasions of Guardalcanal, then off to Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo and Okinawa. (Who ever said I liked my campaings short

I guess one could squeeze out 30-40 battles out of such a campaign including 4-5 opposed landings/invasions.

Hmm..more I think about it, the better it sounds. Because the generated campaign for any pacific units isnt really that good (dont get me wrong, I still think this game is the best one ever made), but the maps all look like the swamp from hell if you know what I mean.

So, Bill or anyone else, any ideas?

Steve

Here are some ideas;

Start off in the Philippines, with defense and counterattack against the Japs. Maybe throw in an initial battle against Philippine guerillas in ’37 or ’38, as a way to beef up experience. It doesn’t sound like your trying to edit down the number of battles anyway. Don’t give many replacement points between battles – make it feel really desperate. Don’t get caught on Corregidor though, have the core force get separated from allied lines, and have to escape on old tug to Australia (maybe I should become an author of cheesy dimestore novels).

Next battles are on New Zealand, first defensive, and then offensive. I don’t know too much about the battles in that area, but there seemed a lot more opportunity for maneuver than on a small island (duh) – bigger maps, more opportunities for creative tactics, etc.. Islands assaults should be included, but one after another would be a real drag.

After cleaning up New Zealand and surrounding areas, move back to the Philippines. Throw in a few amphibious raids against communications posts, POW camps, etc.

The new infantry combat in 5.3 and 6.0 should make an all infantry campaign much more interesting. I do ask payment if you use any of these ideas…I get to be a playtester!

I started a campaign as the Indians ‘the forgotten war’. Is there any interest in that theatre?

[Wild Bill]

THere are quite a number of existing scenarios on the Pacific already in our repertoire of battles.

Mine include the following:

Scen016 The Bushmasters
Scen018 Brave Men of Betio (hard)
Scen020 Angels of Los Banos
Scen035 Flying Chindits
Scen048 The Raiders Hold
Scen050 Jungle Rats
Scen068 Water to Blood
Scen076 A Marine Ordeal
Scen082 Blood Soaked Trail
Scen090 Hospital Heroes
Scen091 Chiang's Nightmare
Scen108 The Dirty Work
Scen118 A Marine Moment
Scen125 Latecomers
Scen131 A Marine Proving Ground

And there are about a dozen more by other scenario authors.

Here are some of those:

Scen#11 Gotanda's Advance
Scen#24 Corregidor
Scen#44 Trail Seven
Scen#59 Menado Airport
Scen#97 Bloody Gona
Scen#98 Gona is Gone
Scen#139 Tracks and Sabers
Scen#161 Iwo Jima (LARGE!)
Scen#191 1st Banzai
(Coming)
Scen#199 Suluan Island
Scen#206 Attack on Indaw
Scen#238 Choiseul 1
Scen#239 Choiseul 2
Scen#244 One Gallant Rush

Hey, Panzer Captain, check out scenario #118, A Marine Moment. That one is the assault on Mt. Suribachi with Lieutenant Schrier.

Oh, did you know Lt. Schrier and Colonel David Shoup appeared in person with John Wayne in "Sands of Iwo Jima" both as actors and consultants?

Here is the text file of that scenario. You can even have your own official flag raising.

I've revised it so if anyone wants to try the revision, drop me a note. It will be included with the next SPWAW patch.
----------------
A MARINE MOMENT

USMC Assault vs Japanese Defend
Mount Suribachi,Iwo Jima, Feb.23,1945

Design Notes:

(1)The human player must take the USMC side in this scenario.
It also works well for a two player or PBEM game.

(2)This is a unique scenario. It is a quick play type of battle. Notice that the units are squads split up into teams, each centered around a BAR man. This give the feel of real small unit action.

(3)The four Flags adjacent to each other is the point where the flag is to be raised over Iwo Jima.

Background

On February 19th, 1945, the largest amphibious invasion in Marine history up until that moment takes place at the very doorstep of the Empire of Japan.

For the first three days on "Sulfur Island," the Marines endure the most hellish fight of their existence. And it is only just beginning. Conquering this barren piece of rock in the middle of the ocean will require all the courage of men of the 3rd, 4th and 5th Marines Divisions as they head inland.

The first goals of General Holland Smith are the capture of Suribachi
and taking the first airfield on the island. This will prove to be the
hardest battle in the Pacific to date and will be the Marine's finest
moment.

On the fourth day of battle, The task of taking the crest is assigned to E Company, 2nd Battalion, 28th Infantry Regiment of the 5th Marine Division. Now within sight of the summit, the rifle company wearily climbs toward the final push to the top.

Marine Corsairs wing overhead protecting the men below. The few remaining Japanese near the crest prepare to put up one last suicidal stand.

It is a different kind of battle. It will now be interesting to see how this works with versions 5.3 and 5.4.

Wild Bill

[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]

[Wild Bill]

Excellent posts, fellas! Glad to see this interest!

I am considering a campaign on Okinawa. It is the largest Island battle of World War II in terms of numbers.

New Guinea is bigger territorily, but Okinawa is The consumate battle of WW2.

I have been researching it now for three weeks. So much there.

Another excellent campaign would be Merrill's Marauders and their nearly 8 month stint in the heat and stench of Burma.

Finally, Ihave maps and scenarios done for nearly 2/3 of a campaign from the Japanese point of view. Just wondering if folks would play that or not.

There is still a lot of ground to be covered and I hope those aspiring to do some will indeed do them.

Wild Bill

[General Mayhem]

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
There is still a lot of ground to be covered and I hope those aspiring to do some will indeed do them.

Wild Bill

What exactly is needed to do?

[Wild Bill]

Help yourself, General. You see the list. Whatever is lacking is your opportunity. It was a big war out there in that vast ocean.

bring it on!

WB

[Rick Borovec]

The War in the Pacific is my favorite too!

Playing as the Japanese on the advance or assualt is always a challange, mostly due to a lack of mobility and firepower, however on defense they can be quite nasty.

Can't wait for ver.6 to see how that will finally effect the mostly infantry battles of the Pacific.

Boro

[Panzer Capta]

Thanks for the information on "A Marine Moment". I have played this scenerio with earlier versions, and i expect it to play a wee bit differently with the upgraded versions (5.2, 5.3, and 6.0).

I am currently reading "Flag of Our Fathers", a terrific book about the flagraisers at Iwo Jima, and highly recommended to all interested in the Pacific Campaign.

The courage to do what was done by the USMC on Iwo Jima, and throughout the Pacific, is beyond all comprehension to most of us. Although we may not comprehend it, our responsibility is to never forget those that experienced it.

Panzer Captain

[Wild Bill]

PC, have you tried the fine big scenario by "Wiseman," called "Iwo Jima?"

It is a microcosm of the entire 6 week battle in one scenario.

Wiseman did a great job here. I've played it twice and had a blast with it.

It has a gritty, real Pacific feel to it.

Wild Bill

[Wild Bill]

I tried 5.4 with the scenario "The Bushmasters (scen#16)," and found it very challenging and a lot of fun. Nice to revisit some of these occasionally.

The Japs can't seem to find the bridge so I am going to revise it and reissue it soon.

Wild Bill

[Nikademus]

meeeeeeeee sir. Though admitedly i like to see a few tanks here or there. 6.0 sounds like this theatre is going to get alot more interesting. Previously it would seem that the large Japanese squads were little better than targets, easy to hit.

Now.......eek, hope the turn limits get longer cause i think the Japanese defence in depth is going to get alot harder :rolleyes:

It would be interesting to see a few more China scenerios as well. That way one can get a chance to play around with the armor and armored cars that Japan had to play with.

[murr]

Iprefer pacific play since there arent too many games or scenarios that deal withit.Its the best infantry style play you can get.

[Warrior]

Originally posted by General Mayhem:
Japanese were difficult to kill, not to
win. Because they didn't know how to lose,
they continued to fought despite they had lost. That's why US atom bombed Japan...

Actually, that's not why we atom bombed the Japs. Probably we just wanted to see what the atom bomb would do to a real city, as cynical as it may sound. The Japs had been trying to surrender for months before we dropped the bomb, but we refused to talk to them. Prolonging the war also allowed the Russians to take Manchuria, with its hugh stores of weapons and material, after entering the war against Japan at the last moment. The fix was in, and the results were the Communist takeover of China (aided by all those weapons the Russians captured and the duplicity of our State Department), and later the Korean war.

[Wild Bill]

Whoa now, Warrior!

I never heard that point of view before! That is very, very interesting. It is completely different from what I have read and assumed.

Got to think on that one for a while...WB

[Nikademus]

I think that one needs to be qualified a bit. Its true that certain elements of the Japanese government did put out feelers through 3rd party channels on negotiating a peace settlement with the Allies. However by around this same time the Potsdam declaration had been announced and since unconditional surrender was unacceptable to most (if not all) of the Japanese military leaders it never went anywhere.

One is free of course to debate on whether the Allied position was unreasonable or inflexible, however given the scale and scope of the war, would any other kind of peace have been acceptable? Mao would have won eventually in China with or without the Russian invasion. Chang Ka-sheck's government was unpopular and hopelessly corrupt. I would'nt blame the US for that one.

Vietnam....yes, but not China.

As for the Atom bomb, disagree. Projections for Operation Olympic estimated 1,000,000 US casualties and perhaps ten times that number in Japanese (civilians included)

A terrible choice to have to use the weapon but with the Japanese government showing no outward sign of giving up the struggle what other course was available?

[A_B]

IMHO, the atom bomb gave Japan an honorable way out of the war. Prior to it's drop, the thought of surrender could not even be considered by many Japanese Leaders, or the bulk of the officer corp. It just couldn't be done. But fighting against the magic of science went beyond the warrior code - hence surrender was now OK.