50mm Mortars way too strong?

[Arthurius]

ORIGINAL: king171717

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Does anyone have a save before a battle we can run to see the 50s doing so well? In cases like these, posting saves is what really helps us look into the combat system.

Just look at any ground combat involving infantry. Its very consistent. this is of of course Germans infantry divisions attacking soviet infantry divisions. Rifle squads 40 and 50mm mortar tend to the most damage and destroyed.

Exactly. It's visible in every battle from 1941 to 1942. German 50 mm mortars do around 50% job for soft targets in most cases.

[Arthurius]

ORIGINAL: king171717

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I don't see anything in those screens that would account for the 50mm being that much better than the 81mm mortar.

Only thing i could think of is the range. That the 51mm fires closer and thus inflicts more damage. But i have no idea, i am guessing.

Thanks for the screenshots carlkay58

Range is only (quasi) interpretation of this fenomen. But why MG-34 are so ineffective?

[fulcrum28]

HPE and FPE in combat report (#post16) what do they mean?

[loki100]

hits per element, fires per element

[AngularMan]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Studies showed most ground battle casualties were due to arty, most of that being mortars.

There is no doubt that mortars were very effective weapons in WWII, but there is a world of difference between the 5-cm-Gr.W. 36 and the 8-cm-Gr.W. 34. One of the most important difference is the range: in order to fire on the enemy with the 5cm mortar, one had to be well in the effective range of many direct-fire weapons, which means the 5cm mortar could be suppressed much more easily.

Insert Numbers here!

As you can see, shell production for the 5cm mortar dropped off sharply in 1941 never to recover, despite the weapon itself still being produced in large numbers until 1943, while the 8cm shell production exceeded it and soon increased to even higher numbers. If you then take into account that the weight of the shell of the 8cm mortar is roughly 4 times that of the 5cm mortar it becomes quite clear that the 8cm mortars had a much higher output than the 5cm mortars, even in 1941.

So any studies proving the effectiveness of mortars are likely not referring to 5cm mortars.

edit: for some reason I can't post the actual numbers or the link to the source until my 10th post, so you just have to trust me on that one

[Joel Billings]

After running some tests, it seems that the light mortars are benefiting from their short range and going into hyper attack mode at 50 yards. The medium mortars are firing as artillery, and then not doing a lot of firing at closer ranges. So they are better at 300 yards plus but don't do much better as the range comes down. We're going to look into this and make some adjustments. The 50s should be doing less and the 81/82s doing more. As for the MGs, the MGs in the rifle squads are a major part of the hits caused by the rifle squads. In general they seem to be doing a lot of disruption, but not a lot of kills and damage. Probably due to their lack of blast effect. Not sure if this will warrant a change.

[king171717]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

After running some tests, it seems that the light mortars are benefiting from their short range and going into hyper attack mode at 50 yards. The medium mortars are firing as artillery, and then not doing a lot of firing at closer ranges. So they are better at 300 yards plus but don't do much better as the range comes down. We're going to look into this and make some adjustments. The 50s should be doing less and the 81/82s doing more. As for the MGs, the MGs in the rifle squads are a major part of the hits caused by the rifle squads. In general they seem to be doing a lot of disruption, but not a lot of kills and damage. Probably due to their lack of blast effect. Not sure if this will warrant a change.

Thanks Joel for the info and looking into things.

[fulcrum28]

In the table shown in post #16, can we know which element fired/destroyed each enemy element?

[fulcrum28]

Joel, was that issue with the range of artillery/mortar units solved in the latest patch ?If so which one?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

In the table shown in post #16, can we know which element fired/destroyed each enemy element?

you can't ... in the end its not a cross tab display. So you know what handed out damage and you know what was damaged.

The only way to put it together is to watch a battle resolution at #5 or more

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

Joel, was that issue with the range of artillery/mortar units solved in the latest patch ?If so which one?

Yes, in 1.01.00.

[fulcrum28]

thanks a lot!

[DeletedUser44]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Studies showed most ground battle casualties were due to arty, most of that being mortars.

At least one source contests that:

"The German 10.5cm le FH 18 howitzer does however have one truly remarkable claim to fame. This is that it almost certainly inflicted more military casualties than any other singular weapon system in human history!"

"This is because the Soviet-German war from 1941 to 1945 was easily the most costly military campaign in history, with the Soviets suffering considerably more military casualties than the rest of the WWII combatants combined (and far more than all the casualties sustained from WWII). At the same time it has been shown that during WWII the large majority of military casualties were inflicted by artillery, and the most common German howitzer fielded during the conflict was the 10.5cm le FH 18/18M; the backbone of the Wehrmacht’s field artillery. Hence without even considering the Western Allied casualties during WWII, the 10.5cm le FH 18 howitzer easily inflicted more military casualties than any other weapon system ever built."

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Studies showed most ground battle casualties were due to arty, most of that being mortars.

At least one source contests that:

"The German 10.5cm le FH 18 howitzer does however have one truly remarkable claim to fame. This is that it almost certainly inflicted more military casualties than any other singular weapon system in human history!"

"This is because the Soviet-German war from 1941 to 1945 was easily the most costly military campaign in history, with the Soviets suffering considerably more military casualties than the rest of the WWII combatants combined (and far more than all the casualties sustained from WWII). At the same time it has been shown that during WWII the large majority of military casualties were inflicted by artillery, and the most common German howitzer fielded during the conflict was the 10.5cm le FH 18/18M; the backbone of the Wehrmacht’s field artillery. Hence without even considering the Western Allied casualties during WWII, the 10.5cm le FH 18 howitzer easily inflicted more military casualties than any other weapon system ever built."

That's one to ponder for a long while... I can think of no argument in favor of another weapon system.
I wonder if the Krupp 88mm might rank in close to that given its lethality. I'd have to compare their production numbers and shell throughput, and I'm definitely far too lazy to bother with that, so I'll go back to pondering.

You should now return to your regularly scheduled programming