IJ commander resurrected - Mundy (A) vs. Castor Troy (IJ) - restricted AAR

[mind_messing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gGrkZ00Iwc

Worth watching for some of the footage here, before making judgements on what should be "realistic".

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gGrkZ00Iwc

Worth watching for some of the footage here, before making judgements on what should be "realistic".

Thank you for the link, very informative.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
JACKPOT! I-15 now gets a shot at Bunker Hill and launches KAITENS! One of them slams into the carrier and immediately causes an ammo storage explosion... right after launching the Kaitens the sub fires a torp spread of four and another two Type 95 torps hit the carrier... wow, looks like Kaiten carrying subs first fire their Kaitens and right after a spread of torps, that makes a lot of torpedoes for an attack on a capital ship... effect of a Kaiten is huge, an ammo storage explosion and two more torps pretty much means that Bunker Hill is in sinking condition... BANZAI!!!

looks like copying IJN's real life sub strategy pays off another time... I-15 is heavily damaged but has a 30/70 chance to make a port in the Marianas if not attacked again... have never seen Kaitens in use before not to talk about one actually hit something, this attack is the prove they work...
[/color]

Ammo storage explosion on CV Bunker Hill

First time I have seen a Kaiten hit in a real game. I've sandboxed them before, and built them in games, but never gotten a hit in a game yet ... Wow!!! Way cool.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gGrkZ00Iwc

Worth watching for some of the footage here, before making judgements on what should be "realistic".

Thank you for the link, very informative.

+1

[Evoken]

Ah Mark Felton epitome of historical accuracy. Never shares his sources , overdramatizes everything , accused of stealing peoples work with no credits given , yeap thats the guy to go to. https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/com ... me_of_his/

Cant believe you guys are still insisting on these rockets work fine , M_M you are saying these casualties are just disabled squads , thats right but thats the expected result from first bombardements on an island from all ships , issue you dont see here is the 6k casualties caused , which is the success paramater for most bombardements , which even 10 BB's in a task force cant cause in best paramaters (both in an amphibious task force or in bombardement task force). Keep in mind Battleships are throwing hundreds times more lead to the enemy , has proper targeting equipment ,air or ground spotters for shell correction.

There is no doubt these rockets were usefull tools for amphibious operations but damage they are inflicting in Witp is disproportionate to every other naval gun , they are violating the standart of every other naval gun and bomb is subject to (which is soft attack = Effect/10) , if these weapons were brought down to standarts of Witp; They would still be effective , they would likely drive the disruption very high but wouldnt be the wonder weapon it currently is.

Seriously , to capture an atoll that is well guarded , you need to bombard , you need warships in amphibious task force to guard it , you need to soften enemy from air. But you dont need all of that if you just put together 20 of these in a task force and it will disable %90 of the defenders without any hussle.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Evoken

Ah Mark Felton epitome of historical accuracy. Never shares his sources , overdramatizes everything , accused of stealing peoples work with no credits given , yeap thats the guy to go to. https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/com ... me_of_his/

You will note that I made effort to include specific reference that the video linked was worth watching specifically for the footage, rather than the commentary.

Felton, for his apparent flaws, does at least seem to have made the effort regarding stock footage (most of the clips were new to me, as was the demonstration of the rocket firing turret).

As an aside, a wall of text on Reddit about someone's version of "history being wrong" has a requirement to consume a large dose of salt while reading. It's interesting that I didn't find anything similar from a cursory check from an academic perspective. That's not necessarily an endorsement, merely that "someone on the internet is WRONG" is a trope as old as the internet itself.

Cant believe you guys are still insisting on these rockets work fine , M_M you are saying these casualties are just disabled squads , thats right but thats the expected result from first bombardements on an island from all ships , issue you dont see here is the 6k casualties caused , which is the success paramater for most bombardements , which even 10 BB's in a task force cant cause in best paramaters (both in an amphibious task force or in bombardement task force). Keep in mind Battleships are throwing hundreds times more lead to the enemy , has proper targeting equipment ,air or ground spotters for shell correction.

Some thoughts in response:

- bombardment missions fire on targets other than troops. Invasion support fire is focused only on enemy troops firing at the landing force.

- The over-stack is almost certainly contributing to the large number of disabled squads.

- The dynamic between guided fire from warships and rocket bombardment is different in nature. In WW2 terms, high calibre naval gunfire is effectively a precision weapon. These rockets are intended to provide area suppression.

- A battleship may be able to throw more high explosive at a target but it will take significantly longer to do so. It's well established that the most dangerous period of any bombardment is the initial phase.

There is no doubt these rockets were usefull tools for amphibious operations but damage they are inflicting in Witp is disproportionate to every other naval gun , they are violating the standart of every other naval gun and bomb is subject to (which is soft attack = Effect/10) , if these weapons were brought down to standarts of Witp; They would still be effective , they would likely drive the disruption very high but wouldnt be the wonder weapon it currently is.

Seriously , to capture an atoll that is well guarded , you need to bombard , you need warships in amphibious task force to guard it , you need to soften enemy from air. But you dont need all of that if you just put together 20 of these in a task force and it will disable %90 of the defenders without any hussle.

Ship designed to specifically support amphibious landings is effective when supporting amphibious landings.

I imagine that the Japanese were equally as frustrated in reality with the Allied ability to turn up and deliver high explosives.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Dili

then we can move the discussion on to if the results seen at Marcus are "out of whack". I'd say that they're not - the large number of disablements (vs destroyed squads) is consistent with the shock effects of artillery, amplifued by the IJ over stacking on Marcus.

The rockets were not aimed, the system is crude being just stuck in the boat going up and down with sea waves, the fortifications would make them almost useless.

Not all the troops would be in concrete forts/bunkers. Most would be in pits and trenches. An explosive hitting near the lip of a pit or trench would still cause some shock/pressure wave effect.

You don't need a concrete bunker to survive shelling with any ordnance like that. 75mm artillery was useless against any sort of entrenchement and so were these rockets. They were nothing more than suppressive but they were no killers unless you get caught in the open. What you needed against entrenched troops was heavy artillery, 150mm and up.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gGrkZ00Iwc

Worth watching for some of the footage here, before making judgements on what should be "realistic".

Thank you for the link, very informative.

OMG, blocking someone still means seeing his nonsense when someone quotes it? Thank you Matrix forum.

As if it wouldn't be ridicoulos enough we now take a FELTON youtube video to judge the effect of these weapons? Have we gone totally nuts now? Is this the Hearts of Iron forum? It's like claiming history channel over a good book. I was even stupid enough to watch the video which is showing exactly NOTHING other than fireworks.

I can only repeat myself and if you people have lost all military and historic knowledge, small calibre weapons are literally useless against anything that is entrenched. You ever heard about WWI trench warfare and which weapons actually destroyed fortified lines even when those were mostly trench lines? You ever heard about WWII and Sevastopol? I'm not claiming a level 6 fort in the game is a Maginot line but it is ten times more that is needed not to see a garrison 100% whiped out by the LCI(G) alone that never were more than suppressive weapons.

Shouldn't we make 8cm mortars into superweapons too? Wonder why these couldn't knock out any type of fortification, just put enough into your line and you most likely could disable all defenders in the Maginot line so the cleaning woman can move in and force the defender to surrender without a loss and all defenders being "destroyed".

This is really going from ridicoulos into depressing as I had quite a good opinion about the people here and their real life knowledge when it comes down to all military stuff and WWII.

A Felton youtube video, just can't belive where this has gone now.

If that troll would just leave the AAR at some point and go back to the HOI forum.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: castor troy
JACKPOT! I-15 now gets a shot at Bunker Hill and launches KAITENS! One of them slams into the carrier and immediately causes an ammo storage explosion... right after launching the Kaitens the sub fires a torp spread of four and another two Type 95 torps hit the carrier... wow, looks like Kaiten carrying subs first fire their Kaitens and right after a spread of torps, that makes a lot of torpedoes for an attack on a capital ship... effect of a Kaiten is huge, an ammo storage explosion and two more torps pretty much means that Bunker Hill is in sinking condition... BANZAI!!!

looks like copying IJN's real life sub strategy pays off another time... I-15 is heavily damaged but has a 30/70 chance to make a port in the Marianas if not attacked again... have never seen Kaitens in use before not to talk about one actually hit something, this attack is the prove they work...
[/color]

Ammo storage explosion on CV Bunker Hill

First time I have seen a Kaiten hit in a real game. I've sandboxed them before, and built them in games, but never gotten a hit in a game yet ... Wow!!! Way cool.

Was the first time I've seen them and they immediately got a hit. Not sure if the game handles them correctly because it looks like any Kaiten equipped sub first fires the four Kaitens, then immediately following with a torp spread giving you quite a number of torps in the water. IIRC Kaitens weren't used much and only one or two ships were actually hit and those were laying at anchor. Always thought Kaitens were intended to be used more or less like midget subs.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Dili



The rockets were not aimed, the system is crude being just stuck in the boat going up and down with sea waves, the fortifications would make them almost useless.

Not all the troops would be in concrete forts/bunkers. Most would be in pits and trenches. An explosive hitting near the lip of a pit or trench would still cause some shock/pressure wave effect.

You don't need a concrete bunker to survive shelling with any ordnance like that. 75mm artillery was useless against any sort of entrenchement and so were these rockets. They were nothing more than suppressive but they were no killers unless you get caught in the open. What you needed against entrenched troops was heavy artillery, 150mm and up.

[citation needed]

That's even before we get to the point that they were not intended to be anti-entrenchment weapons...

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Nomad

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gGrkZ00Iwc

Worth watching for some of the footage here, before making judgements on what should be "realistic".

Thank you for the link, very informative.

I can only repeat myself ...

Yes, you are very good at that.

You're still wrong though, the garrison of Marcus was not wiped out by LCI(G) fire. You can see that yourself from the combat report. It would be refreshing if you could stop repeating this inaccuracy.

This is really going from ridicoulos into depressing as I had quite a good opinion about the people here and their real life knowledge when it comes down to all military stuff and WWII.

So what do you think the realistic outcome of the Marcus scenario would be? Interested to know to try (almost certainly in vain) to find a common point of reference.

[castor troy]

if you have to answer him please just reply and don't quote him as I've already got enough of my stupidity dose for this week

[Dili]

Ship designed to specifically support amphibious landings is effective when supporting amphibious landings.
I imagine that the Japanese were equally as frustrated in reality with the Allied ability to turn up and deliver high explosives.

Basically you chose to not even compare...so you choose to not think.

[Encircled]

Still interested to know why Castor is getting these results with the dive (and Mundy as well) that I'm just not seeing in most AARs and in my games

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Still interested to know why Castor is getting these results with the dive (and Mundy as well) that I'm just not seeing in most AARs and in my games

Version of the game could have some effect. I have not yet switched to the Andy Mac improved AI files for the stock scenarios but I think changes to the air war model could have been part of that.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Still interested to know why Castor is getting these results with the dive (and Mundy as well) that I'm just not seeing in most AARs and in my games

Version of the game could have some effect. I have not yet switched to the Andy Mac improved AI files for the stock scenarios but I think changes to the air war model could have been part of that.

Hmm, we are running the latest patch version but I have not seen a difference to it since release a decade ago. Always been working the same, no idea.

[Alpha77]

Sure the "dive" issue is still valid in vanilla scens w/ latest patch, it might be playing some mod(s) increase the issue. I think a certain part of "missunderstandings" in this forum comes from the problem people playing different mods.

Eg. the nuclear missiles issue here, I just read an AAR were in 44 these boats were also used and did NOT achieve the results shown in this AAR. In fact they seemed quite weak (aka more realistic) however it was also against a bigger island (Saipan). Possibly the island size 1 here contributed also to it being "nuked"

I guess the other AAR was a standard scen while what Castor plays here is some kinda mod. Still he seems to blame "the game" [:-] He is not the only one - but it´s not an excuse imho.

Edit, so I was right here is what they play:
BigBabes scen 28 with extended map

[Alpha77]

Interesting MM taking Mark Felton as source (even if he says "only for the footage, but for what is it worth then?). I was subbed to him for a while but then got bored and noted some inacuracies so unsubbed.

Here a vid about Jagtigers in the Ardennes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOAfIXy-Pgc

He says his sources are Wiki and "Pinterest"

But even Wiki has to say:
Einsatz 1944

Von der US-Armee im Januar 1945 zerstörter Jagdtiger, bei Rimlingen in Lothringen
Im Oktober 1944 (die Abteilung befand sich inzwischen in Döllersheim) trafen die ersten zwölf fabrikneuen Jagdpanzer VI Jagdtiger bei der Abteilung ein. Die Ausbildung wurde fortgesetzt, wobei Soldaten der Abteilung direkt im Nibelungenwerk (dem Herstellerwerk) mitarbeiteten, um sich mit den Jagdpanzern vertraut zu machen. Weitere sieben Jagdpanzer wurden im November zugewiesen. Im Dezember verlegte die Abteilung mit 16 Jagdpanzern an die Westfront, um am deutschen Angriff in den Ardennen teilzunehmen. Der ungünstige Verlauf der Offensive verhinderte einen Einsatz der Abteilung, die stattdessen nun am Unternehmen Nordwind teilnehmen sollte.[6]

Did Felton confuse Ardennes with Op. Nordwind[:D]

Well the English Wiki makes it sound a bit as if Nordwind was part of the Ardennes offensive (but this had ended before Nordwind started or not[&:])

Once re-equipped, the battalion was again split up, with the 1st Company assigned to the 15th Army on the northern flank of the German Ardennes Offensive and the 3rd assigned to the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division Götz von Berlichingen to the south, where it would fight in Operation Nordwind in January. By February, the two companies had reunited at Landau in the Palatinate, and by the end of the month, they were reinforced to a strength of 41 Jagdtigers. In April, it fell back to Austria, from where it was to receive new vehicles from the Nibelungenwerk Factory, and finally reached its conclusion in the war under the command of Army Group Ostmark near Linz.[9]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Interesting MM taking Mark Felton as source (even if he says "only for the footage, but for what is it worth then?).

It was the best collection of stock footage of these weapons in action that I could find after a cursory search.

As for what it's worth? Well, it's one thing to sit behind a keyboard and say "Oh, these weapons are completely overpowered!" and another thing to actually see what these weapons systems were like in action.

I think it made the point well.

[Alpha77]

Well the game itself proved you wrong already, see my post above. As in "stock" these rockets seem to work ok. I believe in the other AAR I read were 8-9 of the rocket boats supporting a landing at Saipan and they killed 3 squads + disabling a dozen or so more...seems fine [:)]

Edit, when reading comments under Feltons vids somehow one can lose hope for humanity...[>:]

Eg.:
"Woah - The profile looks a lot like an M1 Abrams. Curious how the stats compare in terms of weight and range. I know it's insanely slow compared to the M1 - and I'm pretty sure the M1 outclasses the range - but the profile is interesting. "

(M1s really? lol)

"Reversing away from JagdTiger thinking is safe with 1km distant ... Boom!!! And is gone. JagdTiger held the longest range kill in WW2 by able to destroy an allied tank 4000m (4Km) away, is 4000m , not 400m."

(yeah a dozen JT´s maybe got into action the others broke down or simply were abandoned for lack of fuel [8|])

"Der Jagdtiger ist mir der Liebste Panzer der Wehrmacht, schade, dass es so wenige von ihm gab."

"My answer at the video:
"Yep a crap piece of shit that broke down 50% of the time it moved more than 50km and could not go over bridges due to weight... really?")

"I have seen many of your films Mark and can only say how amazing they are to watch. Your research is absolutely in depth. Even German pronunciation is excellent. Thank you for taking so much trouble in your archiving and presentation."

(Such in depth research...loL)

"Is this any good in war thunder 6.7 not 7 or 8 with cold war tanks" [X(]

"Not your normal opening music but a great video as always. I watch a lot of videos on YT and I find a few from posters that I feel is not up to their normal good work. I have watched a TON of your videos and have not yet find one that was not up to your great work. Thank you and as always please keep up the great work."

(3 x great in 3 sentences is not enough imho why not put 5 x great ?)

"One of the Best parts of my day is when one of Mark's videos pops up on my YT feed"

(Imagine how bad his life must be [X(])

(I hope this does not insult the Mark Felton fan MM?)

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Well the game itself proved you wrong already, see my post above. As in "stock" these rockets seem to work ok. I believe in the other AAR I read were 8-9 of the rocket boats supporting a landing at Saipan and they killed 3 squads + disabling a dozen or so more...seems fine [:)]

The differences between Saipan and Marcus (and the difference in units defending) and the subsequent difference in results are important to note.