War in the Pacific 2?

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

It is a shame that the origin story of WitP:AE has been lost in the almost 12 years since it's release.

Joe Wilkerson and a very large team of very dedicated WitP fans came together in the most unlikely alignment of the stars to create this wonderful game. Many of the team have moved on. A few of them remain around the forums today. THEY WERE NOT PAID. It took waaaaay longer than anyone initially anticipated. What they managed to accomplish with an already 7+ year old game engine (it started with Uncommon Valor's release in 2002) was almost miraculous. Gary and Joel from 2x3 Games were not involved in the work (aside from some possible consulting which I'm not aware of), but they gave their blessing to the AE team and Matrix to go with the project, after some significant non-disclosure was put in place.

AE is an amazing game, the best wargame ever created in my book, but she has very old bones. Any realistic new edition of WitP would require starting from scratch with a brand new game engine, since that along with the UI is where updating would be most needed. That is just not possible for a group of fans to do. It is not possible for professional game programmers to do without the rights to the intellectual property included in the current version. That won't be granted for free to a professional game development company that wants to get paid for making and selling the game. 2 x 3 Games would and should get paid a significant portion of the profits, not leaving enough incentive for the new developers.

This grand old game is the end of the line unless 2 x 3 Games have a significant change of heart. She's a beauty, and I fully expect to be playing her 10+ years from now. That's an insane lifespan for a computer game. She won't be replaced and will slowly sail into the sunset and sink over the horizon. It's a grand and still sad thought. Perhaps that sadness is what sparks some of the bitter comments on every new thread about WitP 2.

You pretty much hit the nail right on the head there. What made WitP:AE possible was a dedicated team, effective leadership by Joe and Don, and a LOT OF TIME. I mean a LOT.

It's possible a successor game could be made but that would be an incredible amount of work. If those doing it had to rebuild the equipment and unit databases that would make it vastly more again. It would need to be built from the ground up, or make use of a more modern existing game engine. As you say the WitP:AE game engine is old (ancient in computer terms).

I'd love to see it happen though [:)]

[BBfanboy]

Ok, AB is in for $5K! [:D]

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

It is a shame that the origin story of WitP:AE has been lost in the almost 12 years since it's release.

Joe Wilkerson and a very large team of very dedicated WitP fans came together in the most unlikely alignment of the stars to create this wonderful game. Many of the team have moved on. A few of them remain around the forums today. THEY WERE NOT PAID. It took waaaaay longer than anyone initially anticipated. What they managed to accomplish with an already 7+ year old game engine (it started with Uncommon Valor's release in 2002) was almost miraculous. Gary and Joel from 2x3 Games were not involved in the work (aside from some possible consulting which I'm not aware of), but they gave their blessing to the AE team and Matrix to go with the project, after some significant non-disclosure was put in place.

AE is an amazing game, the best wargame ever created in my book, but she has very old bones. Any realistic new edition of WitP would require starting from scratch with a brand new game engine, since that along with the UI is where updating would be most needed. That is just not possible for a group of fans to do. It is not possible for professional game programmers to do without the rights to the intellectual property included in the current version. That won't be granted for free to a professional game development company that wants to get paid for making and selling the game. 2 x 3 Games would and should get paid a significant portion of the profits, not leaving enough incentive for the new developers.

This grand old game is the end of the line unless 2 x 3 Games have a significant change of heart. She's a beauty, and I fully expect to be playing her 10+ years from now. That's an insane lifespan for a computer game. She won't be replaced and will slowly sail into the sunset and sink over the horizon. It's a grand and still sad thought. Perhaps that sadness is what sparks some of the bitter comments on every new thread about WitP 2.

You pretty much hit the nail right on the head there. What made WitP:AE possible was a dedicated team, effective leadership by Joe and Don, and a LOT OF TIME. I mean a LOT.

It's possible a successor game could be made but that would be an incredible amount of work. If those doing it had to rebuild the equipment and unit databases that would make it vastly more again. It would need to be built from the ground up, or make use of a more modern existing game engine. As you say the WitP:AE game engine is old (ancient in computer terms).

I'd love to see it happen though [:)]

All, very much true....GP

[pontiouspilot]

thanks for the refresher....by my optimist leaning your note actually maps exactly how one could proceed to move the game to it's next renaissance. It has been done already once.

[RangerJoe]

Here are some more threads asking for another version:

This one was started by a moose, "WITP2 Ruminations (Was "OT:WitE Forum")"

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3153872

If I were King for a day...

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3080272

What is Next for this Game

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3057302

New-War in the Pacific?

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3053368

[RangerJoe]

If anything, an updated manual reflecting all of the changes would be nice. I would pay for that if it was a downloadable PDF manual through Matrix. But then again, there may have to be permissions and legal stuff involved so it may not be done. One individual had been working on that but did not receive such nor I do believe support so that individual ended that project.

"updated Manual?"

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3143432

"possible new updated manual in PDF?"

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3036305

I went to the very beginning of the threads before the game even came out and started looking through the thread titles. If the thread title caught my eye, I would read some or all of the thread. There were a lot of changes requests that were done, hence the updates but those were not put into the manual so read the addendums for the updates.

[Sardaukar]

What might be possible is "enhanced AI scripts".

But as our Andymac can tell, it's not an easy undertaking.

[Moltrey]

The last time we had a WITP 2 go-around, Alfred participated and downplayed any likelihood of a new version happening. Nothing unusual about that.
However...

At the end of the thread, he made a cryptic post that said something to the effect of:

Matrix Games is open to listening to serious offers.

Obviously I am paraphrasing here as I can't find the thread, but my reaction reading it at the time was WTF??

Perhaps he will drop by and enlighten us as to what he meant by his statement at the time. I was too frustrated at the thread to bother replying weeks later when I finally saw his reply, so it ended.
Personally, I think it would take a new development studio with another scope statement on the pacific war. But, as others mentioned, perhaps we, good wargamers, are just a dying niche that can't hope to compete with the new "Fortnite" world.

As the couple on HGTV loves to say... "How do we eat a whale? One bite at a time."
One can dream I guess.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

The last time we had a WITP 2 go-around, Alfred participated and downplayed any likelihood of a new version happening. Nothing unusual about that.
However...

At the end of the thread, he made a cryptic post that said something to the effect of:

Matrix Games is open to listening to serious offers.

Obviously I am paraphrasing here as I can't find the thread, but my reaction reading it at the time was WTF??

Perhaps he will drop by and enlighten us as to what he meant by his statement at the time. I was too frustrated at the thread to bother replying weeks later when I finally saw his reply, so it ended.
Personally, I think it would take a new development studio with another scope statement on the pacific war. But, as others mentioned, perhaps we, good wargamers, are just a dying niche that can't hope to compete with the new "Fortnite" world.

As the couple on HGTV loves to say... "How do we eat a whale? One bite at a time."
One can dream I guess.

Serious offers means a full fledged business plan, costed and with identified coding resources and timelines. Just saying, "Let's get the community together and start a go-fund-me page does not qualify.

[Maallon]

The community could not fund a WITP2 in the first place, it would be far too expensive, especially with the features that tend to be suggested here.
Approaching Matrix with a realistic business plan could indeed work.

I don't think that we are a dying niche, there are new people coming to the game from time to time after all.
Our niche is just too small to make a lot of money with, the mainstream is where the real money in gaming lies.
Even a somewhat successful mobile game could probably make you far more money than a WITP2.
So development studios in the last couple years tended to go more mainstream to get a bigger market share.

I remember reading that Fortnite made more than 2 million dollars a day in 2018 in revenues and made a total of 1.2 billion dollars in its first 10 months after launch.
For WITP2 to make 1.2 billion dollars in revenue it would need to sell roughly 17 million copies with a unit price of 70$. With 17 million copies the game would make it in the top 100 of best-selling games in history and would be the most popular strategy game ever made. (for example Civilization 5 "only" moved 8 million copies)
Not particular realistic to happen.
Just to show the difference between niche and mainstream.

[fcooke]

I thought a couple of years ago someone was attempting to re-write the manual - maybe Alfred? But I am getting older and the line between reality and la-la land keeps getting fuzzier....

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Maallon

The community could not fund a WITP2 in the first place, it would be far too expensive, especially with the features that tend to be suggested here.
Approaching Matrix with a realistic business plan could indeed work.

I don't think that we are a dying niche, there are new people coming to the game from time to time after all.
Our niche is just too small to make a lot of money with, the mainstream is where the real money in gaming lies.
Even a somewhat successful mobile game could probably make you far more money than a WITP2.
So development studios in the last couple years tended to go more mainstream to get a bigger market share.

I remember reading that Fortnite made more than 2 million dollars a day in 2018 in revenues and made a total of 1.2 billion dollars in its first 10 months after launch.
For WITP2 to make 1.2 billion dollars in revenue it would need to sell roughly 17 million copies with a unit price of 70$. With 17 million copies the game would make it in the top 100 of best-selling games in history and would be the most popular strategy game ever made. (for example Civilization 5 "only" moved 8 million copies)
Not particular realistic to happen.
Just to show the difference between niche and mainstream.

[&:]
Made? But what were the Net Profits and Gross profits? How much money can you get from me if I am not interested in what so other many people want? Maybe I am more epicurian in my tastes! I would rather have 1 of something excellent than 6 of something so-so and 12 of something that I would equate to fecal material.

There is nothing wrong with filling niches but it still has to be profitable to do so.

[Maallon]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Maallon

The community could not fund a WITP2 in the first place, it would be far too expensive, especially with the features that tend to be suggested here.
Approaching Matrix with a realistic business plan could indeed work.

I don't think that we are a dying niche, there are new people coming to the game from time to time after all.
Our niche is just too small to make a lot of money with, the mainstream is where the real money in gaming lies.
Even a somewhat successful mobile game could probably make you far more money than a WITP2.
So development studios in the last couple years tended to go more mainstream to get a bigger market share.

I remember reading that Fortnite made more than 2 million dollars a day in 2018 in revenues and made a total of 1.2 billion dollars in its first 10 months after launch.
For WITP2 to make 1.2 billion dollars in revenue it would need to sell roughly 17 million copies with a unit price of 70$. With 17 million copies the game would make it in the top 100 of best-selling games in history and would be the most popular strategy game ever made. (for example Civilization 5 "only" moved 8 million copies)
Not particular realistic to happen.
Just to show the difference between niche and mainstream.

[&:]
Made? But what were the Net Profits and Gross profits? How much money can you get from me if I am not interested in what so other many people want? Maybe I am more epicurian in my tastes! I would rather have 1 of something excellent than 6 of something so-so and 12 of something that I would equate to fecal material.

There is nothing wrong with filling niches but it still has to be profitable to do so.

I completely agree with you and never stated anything differently! I would never exchange WITPAE for Fortnite!
The article I read only talked about revenues, it is not publicly known how much net profit or gross profit epic games made with Fortnite. At least not that I am aware of. Revenues are of course only part of the story.
Sorry English is not my first language, is "made" not the correct word in this situation?

Also there is of course nothing wrong with filling niches. What I was getting at is that it is far more lucrative to go mainstream if your main interest is money. But as I stated before: People like Gary Grigsby probably aren't doing what they do only because they are interested in the money, with their skill they could make far more money than they are making now. I already heard a lot from niche indie developers that it can be hard to resist the temptation of just picking up a normal programming job in a larger company as they would get a stable and often even higher income through this. So they do what they do because they are dedicated to what they do.
But it is not always this easy, sometimes companies go mainstream because they have to otherwise they would go bankrupt. Beeing a developer in a niche is hard and a lot of them need to take up side jobs to stay afloat throughout most of their career.
edit: And as soon your company grows and employs more people you can't stay afloat with dedication alone.
WITP is especially troublesome as, given its complexity, development cost would be high but the potential market is comparatively small, so staying profitable with a game like this will likely proof very hard.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Maallon

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Maallon

The community could not fund a WITP2 in the first place, it would be far too expensive, especially with the features that tend to be suggested here.
Approaching Matrix with a realistic business plan could indeed work.

I don't think that we are a dying niche, there are new people coming to the game from time to time after all.
Our niche is just too small to make a lot of money with, the mainstream is where the real money in gaming lies.
Even a somewhat successful mobile game could probably make you far more money than a WITP2.
So development studios in the last couple years tended to go more mainstream to get a bigger market share.

I remember reading that Fortnite made more than 2 million dollars a day in 2018 in revenues and made a total of 1.2 billion dollars in its first 10 months after launch.
For WITP2 to make 1.2 billion dollars in revenue it would need to sell roughly 17 million copies with a unit price of 70$. With 17 million copies the game would make it in the top 100 of best-selling games in history and would be the most popular strategy game ever made. (for example Civilization 5 "only" moved 8 million copies)
Not particular realistic to happen.
Just to show the difference between niche and mainstream.

[&:]
Made? But what were the Net Profits and Gross profits? How much money can you get from me if I am not interested in what so other many people want? Maybe I am more epicurian in my tastes! I would rather have 1 of something excellent than 6 of something so-so and 12 of something that I would equate to fecal material.

There is nothing wrong with filling niches but it still has to be profitable to do so.

I completely agree with you and never stated anything differently! I would never exchange WITPAE for Fortnite!
The article I read only talked about revenues, it is not publicly known how much net profit or gross profit epic games made with Fortnite. At least not that I am aware of. Revenues are of course only part of the story.
Sorry English is not my first language, is "made" not the correct word in this situation?

Also there is of course nothing wrong with filling niches. What I was getting at is that it is far more lucrative to go mainstream if your main interest is money. But as I stated before: People like Gary Grigsby probably aren't doing what they do only because they are interested in the money, with their skill they could make far more money than they are making now. I already heard a lot from niche indie developers that it can be hard to resist the temptation of just picking up a normal programming job in a larger company as they would get a stable and often even higher income through this. So they do what they do because they are dedicated to what they do.
But it is not always this easy, sometimes companies go mainstream because they have to otherwise they would go bankrupt. Beeing a developer in a niche is hard and a lot of them need to take up side jobs to stay afloat throughout most of their career.
edit: And as soon your company grows and employs more people you can't stay afloat with dedication alone.
WITP is especially troublesome as, given its complexity, development cost would be high but the potential market is comparatively small, so staying profitable with a game like this will likely proof very hard.

Made is fine and is frequently used in such context. Made money is different if you were referring to using a printing press . . . [:-]

Yes. The game is fine now but an updated manual would be nice but it would have to be done by a team. Knowledgeable people to write certain chapters then knowledgeable people to proof read it, edit it, then the corrections which would have to be agreed upon.

You English is fine as far as I am concerned and I know that there are many people here who aren't people who have English as a first or even second language.

So, have ein gute bier and relax.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I thought a couple of years ago someone was attempting to re-write the manual - maybe Alfred? But I am getting older and the line between reality and la-la land keeps getting fuzzier....

Yes, that was Alfred. I can remember that much.

But getting older is better than the alternative, at least right now . . . [8|]

Even if it is just to look . . . [:D]

[BBfanboy]

She is obviously in distress with those twisted legs - think you can help with that?

[eskuche]

[:-][:-]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

She is obviously in distress with those twisted legs - think you can help with that?

Of course I can. [:D]

I am free, so I won't get slapped by a different female - or worse! [X(]

Besides, I was a member of an organization or three where I was taught to help people who need it. [:'(]

[fcooke]

RJ - getting older is certainly better than the alternative in my book! At least I now know I wasn't in la-la land on that one.

As for small Japanese/Asian women when I was still working I had a small team in Tokyo - about ten people...mostly women (an advantage for non-Japanese companies since sexist discrimination is still rife in Japanese companies, so we get access to a smart and motivated pool of people). Anyway, I made it a point to meet with all of them, not just my direct reports. So I'm chatting with a person who I thought was a youngster, maybe late twenties. Spoke about what she has done for the last 6 years (new hire). She tells me, and then ask her what she studied in school. She says that was a long time ago, it turns out she was in her mid forties. face plant. To this day I am not sure if she was insulted or flattered. She being Japanese (and me being retired) I will never know.....

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Maallon

The community could not fund a WITP2 in the first place, it would be far too expensive, especially with the features that tend to be suggested here.
Approaching Matrix with a realistic business plan could indeed work.

I don't think that we are a dying niche, there are new people coming to the game from time to time after all.
Our niche is just too small to make a lot of money with, the mainstream is where the real money in gaming lies.
Even a somewhat successful mobile game could probably make you far more money than a WITP2.
So development studios in the last couple years tended to go more mainstream to get a bigger market share.

I remember reading that Fortnite made more than 2 million dollars a day in 2018 in revenues and made a total of 1.2 billion dollars in its first 10 months after launch.
For WITP2 to make 1.2 billion dollars in revenue it would need to sell roughly 17 million copies with a unit price of 70$. With 17 million copies the game would make it in the top 100 of best-selling games in history and would be the most popular strategy game ever made. (for example Civilization 5 "only" moved 8 million copies)
Not particular realistic to happen.
Just to show the difference between niche and mainstream.

[&:]
Made? But what were the Net Profits and Gross profits? How much money can you get from me if I am not interested in what so other many people want? Maybe I am more epicurian in my tastes! I would rather have 1 of something excellent than 6 of something so-so and 12 of something that I would equate to fecal material.

There is nothing wrong with filling niches but it still has to be profitable to do so.

It's funny how for someone who professes to dislike these threads you appear to be the biggest gadfly for said thread.

Funny that...