So, when is the new patch coming out?

[Lobster]

Dear god, I'm not slamming the game. Get a grip. You have no idea what's going on. [8|]

Believe it or not there are some things more important than how quickly a game is being advanced. [:'(]

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Dear god, I'm not slamming the game. Get a grip. You have no idea what's going on. [8|]

Believe it or not there are some things more important than how quickly a game is being advanced. [:'(]

Well, ya sure ain't doin' it no good!!

And you're right, there ARE more important things than making sure your little green Army men are shooting the EXACT number of buwwets per second as per historical documentation.

Take a look at my AAR w/ David. See? That's how you play a GAME. One has FUN with it. You seem incapable of realizing that.

But you're, right, machs nichts. Now pardon me while I work some more on my application to proceed with my Ph.D. (it has nothing to do with TOAW). BTW, weren't you working on a scenario of the entire WWII from 1933, world scale at 2.5km per hex? Whatever became of that? I was SO looking forward to playing it.

Well, toodles!

[Lobster]

[:D] No. It was from the rise of the Roman Empire to the turn of the 21st Century at 1km per hex at century/platoon level.

But in the real world it was Barbarossa. Health issues complicate things and slow stuff down sometimes. See what I said there? Maybe you're smart enough to get it since you're working on a PhD. I hurt my back slipping on ice a few years ago so my time at the computer is limited to how much pain I can tolerate. Progressing slowly with the scenario.

Also since you don't bother to read posts you would realize I've said the important thing is to have fun several times. But hey, go ahead and focus on the negative. See the thing about blinders down there? We are all guilty. [;)]

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
BTW, weren't you working on a scenario of the entire WWII from 1933, world scale at 2.5km per hex? Whatever became of that? I was SO looking forward to playing it.

I'm assuming sarcasm there but as long as you bring it up. Deploying the Axis. I have no good information about deployment at the regimental scale so I go with divisional. I'll let the Axis players decide how to deploy divisional, corp and army assets depending on historical assigned areas of operation since there's no hard information to go on. They'll have a week to do this. The turn before the invasion, 21 June, the Soviets will be allowed to move each frontier unit one hex in either direction parallel to the frontier. This will keep the German player from playing the opening move over and over and over again to get that perfect first turn move that some people thinks make them extra good generals. Variety is the spice of life. [;)]

I was concerned I wouldn't have enough formations for the Soviets but squeezed it in at 980 formations with each infantry/mech/tank division in it's own formation.

You can get a good idea of the immensity of the undertaking on the German side.

[woos1981]

Could someone just tell me why this game hasn't been updated? Dose it abandoned by the developer? Or is the update work in progress? Why hasn't there been any news? Thank you very much!

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: woos1981

Could someone just tell me why this game hasn't been updated? Dose it abandoned by the developer? Or is the update work in progress? Why hasn't there been any news? Thank you very much!

Is big secret, only cigar man knows. Loose lips sink ships! j/k we all want to know. We are waiting on big Kermmander update, nobody knows (except cigar man) where that be. In meantime, we keep on trudging along.

What I want to know is: there was big fan base for III, some still here, but many many went on to other games, I guess .... or maybe they just play III <shrug> if so I wish the III forum were more visible and wish for more AAR there. I recall some chap had started an AAR for a run at VCO? Would like to have seen that. Would like to see more Larry AAR too.

[larryfulkerson]

Would like to see more Larry AAR too.

I may have to start another AAR with me doing my D21 mod again.
I'm on T21 but I can continue from there. Thanks for keeping
me in your loop.

[parmenio]

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
What I want to know is: there was big fan base for III, some still here, but many many went on to other games

One of those is me.... I bought every version of TOAW all the way up to IV which I bought on Steam on December 27th. I played a total of 32 minutes (I checked just now). There was a big fanfare about a load of new features but the first existing thing I tried was broken.... it simply didn't work and I haven't played it since. I believe my particular bug has now been fixed but when I look at the list of problems with updating, I simply can't be arsed to invest any more time in this game. I've moved on but I still visit this forum from time to time to see if anything has changed (it hasn't).

[Peresvet]

Yep. I would also be interested in learning whether this game is still alive before investing time in learning it.

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: parmenio

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
What I want to know is: there was big fan base for III, some still here, but many many went on to other games

One of those is me.... I bought every version of TOAW all the way up to IV which I bought on Steam on December 27th. I played a total of 32 minutes (I checked just now). There was a big fanfare about a load of new features but the first existing thing I tried was broken.... it simply didn't work and I haven't played it since. I believe my particular bug has now been fixed but when I look at the list of problems with updating, I simply can't be arsed to invest any more time in this game. I've moved on but I still visit this forum from time to time to see if anything has changed (it hasn't).

Yeah, I kind of lost interest since, for starters, some features of the editor were broken for ages, then there were so many bugs reported that I sort of lost confidence on what's happening in the background and never really gained any confidence. (For ex, just checked the beta tester forum, there's a bug re air strikes on carriers that pretty much screws AI in carrier scenarios and requires workaround for human players. First reported in 2018 and still around as far as I'm aware.)

The other thing is that there isn't really anything that truly separates this game from TOAW III, features wise. There's a couple of glitches fixed, some others introduced, some bugs sorted, some more introduced, but there is not really anything to separate them.

[Hellen_slith]

Ya, weird that when I tried to purchase III from Matrix last year, a rep told me, "We no longer sell, is OBSOLETE." Who the heck won't sell their own game? And the III forums were difficult for me to find. Its like they actively try to kill III. Weird. <shrug> But I found it anyway. Either I DID purchase it way back when and forget b/c I was so busy w/ work, or someone gifted it to me. I dunno. I still need to fire it up. Will do so when I get a chance, if only to do VCO in III.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: woos1981

Could someone just tell me why this game hasn't been updated? Dose it abandoned by the developer? Or is the update work in progress? Why hasn't there been any news? Thank you very much!

I explain the situation on 6/6 (see post #20 here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5028733 ). Only three days later, it's like no one was listening.

[sithlord_shag]

ORIGINAL: woos1981

Could someone just tell me why this game hasn't been updated? Dose it abandoned by the developer? Or is the update work in progress? Why hasn't there been any news? Thank you very much!

Bob obviously can't comment on some of these issues directly because of the nature of his working relationship with Matrix. So just beware that his ability to provide information freely is out of his control. That is a very typical situation an employee/contractor can find themselves in and is entirely proper given that contracts bind employees and their employers. What does seem to be generally argued by others on here is that development is under-resourced and Bob is basically the sole resource working on the game.

Clearly that is a question for Matrix not Bob. Some of the criticisms of Matrix in that regard may have some substance but ultimately Matrix is a commercial company and resourcing of the game development should correspond with its profit strategy for the game. Now it may have no profit strategy, the whole management team may be in the thralls of a scorching meth addiction or the development budget is being blown monthly on midget throwing contests in the company basement; we can speculate wildly but company's generally do respond to sales and the decision of Matrix to put TOAW on Steam potentially gives it a fresh profile in a large market.

If you believe in the game and enjoy it and want it to grow go on to Steam and do a positive review of it or gift a copy to a friend who might like it. I gifted a copy to my 14 yo nephew and he has not stopped playing it since December. He now wants to buy the campaign series games. As a commercial company Matrix is more likely to respond to things like sales growth. As I said earlier Matrix may have internal problems with building a strategy, no one knows but the answer may be as simple as better sales.

In terms of frustration Woos, I certainly feel it myself. Its a great game and the game is good enough to deserve more development. Maybe there is things we can do in this community to make it more likely.

[Lobster]

Sadly the game's advancement it constrained by personal conflict and lack of leadership derived from personal conflict. Matrix can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do nor can they force anyone to accept help that isn't asked for. So the game and it's fans are held hostage by personal opinions and conflicts.

Enjoy what you have and hope for the best is all you can do. [;)]

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag
So just beware that his ability to provide information freely is out of his control. That is a very typical situation an employee/contractor can find themselves in and is entirely proper given that contracts bind employees and their employers. What does seem to be generally argued by others on here is that development is under-resourced and Bob is basically the sole resource working on the game.

A couple of things: many game developers on Matrix provide a lot of information about their games during development...as just four examples, look at Campaign Series (a huge number of posts on development of their Vietnam and East Front games), Flashpoint Campaigns (quite a bit of info about their upcoming game), Warplan (dev frequently comments about upcoming patches, features, etc.), and CMO (comments about upcoming features they are trying to work in). So I'm not sure where you get the idea (other than from Bob) that Matrix prohibits developers about disclosing information about their games?

Also, where did you get the idea that Bob is a Matrix employee? If he is, this is news to me. I don't know that any of the game devs here on Matrix are Matrix employees, that is not their business model.

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag
If you believe in the game and enjoy it and want it to grow go on to Steam and do a positive review of it or gift a copy to a friend who might like it...As a commercial company Matrix is more likely to respond to things like sales growth.

Sorry, but I have absolutely zero confidence that sales growth or decline will have the slightest influence on this game's development. Before they began drifting off to other games, players of this series have been voicing their opinions/concerns for years, with no apparent effect. As far as I can tell, the pace (or lack thereof) of development of this game depends solely on the whims and time constraints of Ralph and Bob, or from what I understand now, just Bob.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Sadly the game's advancement it constrained by personal conflict and lack of leadership derived from personal conflict.

No clue what that means. No conflict for me as I do my coding thing.

Matrix can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do ...

They can withold royalties.

nor can they force anyone to accept help that isn't asked for.

The, now oft repeated, lie that I'm preventing adding coders. Here is the reality: Matrix has total control over that. But look at the situation they're in: If they want to hire a new coding pro, they would have to offer Ralph's royalties to that coder. But, as soon as they do, Ralph will announce that he's "back!", and demand them for himself. That leaves relying on non-pros working for free. You get what you pay for, and there are real risks entrusting the code to people with no stake or commitment to the game.

[sithlord_shag]

I said employee/contractor, I don't know for sure. Do you have better information?

If a commercial entity entrusts certain tasks to a person they usually need to have a legal mechanism to bind the other party so their IP/trade secrets are protected. Its usually accomplished through the employee-employer relationship. It could also be undertaken with a deed of confidentiality. There may be other ways to do that I can't think of any other way to ATM. Possibly there are also other ways unique to your locality. Or Bob's locality. Or Matrix's locality.

As far as developers exchanging information go, there could well be specific arrangements with TOAW that are different. Clearly, if we accept your account as correct (and I am not proposing to dispute that or trawl the places you mention to rebut your examples) using the cases you have cited, there are different arrangements for other games.

You seem aggrieved by that. That is understandable if there different levels of information for other games. Why is that different for TOAW? I dont know. Maybe matrix have made it an exception to the general pattern you describe earlier.

Its quite clear from Bob's posts that he feels the need to moderate his comments about the game development. I said that he feels he cannot comment because of the nature of his relationship with Matrix. There was enough information in his earlier post to gather that he felt could not speak freely. I dont think thats an inaccurate summary. He did say that Matrix frowns on discussing future development. I took that further and in the latter part of my post and hypothesised he may have an employment relationship, he may have a deed of confidentiality as specific examples to the person I was addressing . I dont know what the nature of the relationship with Matrix could be. The hypothesised reasons I gave are the most usual likely explanations for his restraint. There could well be others.

I can't really add anything to the latter part of what you said. As lobster said earlier if there are certain events within the company that are retarding the game development and as you say problems with individuals than progress, if your respective accounts are correct, would seem remote.

Seriously, how would you change it?

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

A couple of things: many game developers on Matrix provide a lot of information about their games during development...as just four examples, look at Campaign Series (a huge number of posts on development of their Vietnam and East Front games), Flashpoint Campaigns (quite a bit of info about their upcoming game), Warplan (dev frequently comments about upcoming patches, features, etc.), and CMO (comments about upcoming features they are trying to work in). So I'm not sure where you get the idea (other than from Bob) that Matrix prohibits developers about disclosing information about their games?

Here we go again! To repeat: We have NDAs. That means we can't talk about what is going on in development. And even if we didn't, there are very good reasons not to talk about them too far in advance. First, it heats up the public too early, resulting in the excitement for the update being far past its peak by the time the update is finally released. Second, players could buy the game in anticipation of some proposed feature, then feel ripped off when that feature takes years to arrive, or even never arrives.

Nevertheless, note that Commanders were discussed (because we wanted volunteers). That was more than a year ago and the update still isn't finished. So...there's the issue just as I described it above.

Also, where did you get the idea that Bob is a Matrix employee? If he is, this is news to me. I don't know that any of the game devs here on Matrix are Matrix employees, that is not their business model.

Right. Neither Ralph nor I are Matrix. Tamas was and his replacement, Bart Schouten, is. Usually, Tamas would take these issues. Bart probably should, but he was just suposed to be temporary, and I don't think he's even ever posted here.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag
As far as developers exchanging information go, there could well be specific arrangements with TOAW that are different...You seem aggrieved by that. That is understandable if there different levels of information for other games. Why is that different for TOAW?

I'm not aggrieved, I'm just pointing out that plenty of other Matrix games post about upcoming developments to a greater or lesser degree. I struggle to understand why that couldn't be the case with TOAW if Bob desired to do so, but clearly he doesn't.

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag
Seriously, how would you change it?

For the record, I've not proposed changing anything, because I don't see any fix under the current circumstances. All I've done is point out that I don't think that more people buying the game on Steam (or elsewhere) will change anything.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Here we go again! To repeat: We have NDAs. That means we can't talk about what is going on in development. And even if we didn't, there are very good reasons not to talk about them too far in advance.

Indeed, here we go again. All I know is that plenty of other games post about ongoing developments...perhaps you have some kind of super-secret NDA, dunno... And while I understand that there are good reasons to not to talk too much about upcoming developments, there are also plenty of good reasons to do just that--to keep the player base engaged and to avoid questions--as we are getting on this forum--about whether the game has been abandoned, or certain chronic issues will be fixed. Traffic on this forum is certainly not growing.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Right. Neither Ralph nor I are Matrix. Tamas was and his replacement, Bart Schouten, is. Usually, Tamas would take these issues. Bart probably should, but he was just suposed to be temporary, and I don't think he's even ever posted here.

Well, here I certainly agree with you that it would certainly make sense if the Matrix rep would chime in from time to time about the game, so Bart's complete and total absence is rather puzzling and I can see how it might lead some to conclude that Matrix has basically written this game off rather than than treating it as the potentially valuable franchise that it is.

I don't know enough (actually I don't know anything) about how the rights to the game are divvied up at this point (Norm, Ralph, you, Matrix, others?) to understand how it impacts development, but suspect that it can't help much. Wargames are a marginally profitable undertaking at the best of times, and if you have to split up the pie several ways (with one guy at this point basically doing all the work) it gets hard to imagine why anyone would be particularly motivated to work on the game.