Message for Ralph Tricky

The sequel of the legendary wargame with a complete graphics and interface overhaul, major new gameplay and design features such as full naval combat modelling, improved supply handling, numerous increases to scenario parameters to better support large scenarios, and integrated PBEM++.
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4139
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

@Ben

How did your Excel game work out -- encounter any limitations on numbers of graphical objects that could be used?

Cheers

Graphical objects...? I think you're overestimating how sophisticated I got with this thing.

Attached is a screenshot; the numbers mark the position of the unit on the map, then conditional formatting colours it red or blue to show the faction, with three shades of grey to show rough unit strength (everyone here is pretty fresh so you don't see the faded grey for weaker units). The cell borders display unit facings which are drawn when the unit turns, though this is pretty hit-and-miss: you'll note that when 33rd turned to its left to face 1st, it erased the frontage of 2nd which is also facing it to the north. As a result you sometimes need to refer to the OOB list off to the right to understand what's actually going on. The player uses the controls to move, turn or attack with the unit in the active cell, and clicks to select a different unit. It's not designed to be used by a rogue player so there's nothing to stop you selecting a unit from the other force in the middle of your turn.

The main thing here is the AI, which is a series of "if" statements telling each AI unit how to act depending on what units are deployed around it. In this scenario, blue (me) has refused the eastern flank while pushing a number of reserve regiments into the western flank, with a view to enveloping red (ai) while avoiding a collapse on the other end of the line. The AI is able to follow up to attack but, but not smart enough to flank or to shift reserves over to the weak part of the line (you can see the second line on red's right is just dumbly following up rather than shifting over as a player would). In fact, when Blue's flank move caused 41st to become isolated from the rest of red's line, the AI's response to an isolated unit was to pull it back to safety, which here looks like the unit is fleeing the battlefield. I could theoretically add more "if" statements to look for friendly units to either side to help it consolidate the line.

The setting I had in mind was more like a hoplite engagement, so everyone is melee, and there is no terrain whatsoever. I was going to expand it either to be a beer and pretzels strat game or to include ranged units, but I lost interest.

The point of this exercise was twofold:
1) it was a cool way to learn VBA, which you never know might one day be useful
2) work was quiet, and I thought having Excel up in front of me would look more like I was busy than something more obvious

I'm actually a lot happier with my Excel RPG... that's actually a complete game, where the player explores three levels of procedurally generated dungeon, collecting treasure and XP on the way to the exit (or more often untimely death).

Image
Attachments
ExcelBattle.jpg
ExcelBattle.jpg (259.11 KiB) Viewed 572 times
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4139
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I don't know anything about Warplan, but that's very unlikely.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1893814

Are you implying that a single hotseat run by the designer demonstrates that a scenario is a good simulation?
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15065
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


You can't be serious.

https://crossrl1.wixsite.com/my-toaw-si ... arbor-1941

With the right events you could probably use this map to "simulate" the holiday I took on Oahu with my parents in 2001. Only one counter. One hour turns. VPs awarded for converting various hexes. Important to bring your counter back to your supply point in Honolulu once per day or movement will be greatly reduced. You'd probably want to use rail hexes to simulate bus routes.

But what about Waikiki Beach? You need a naval unit for your surfing. (Don't tell us you didn't surf, Ben.)
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15065
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I don't know anything about Warplan, but that's very unlikely.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1893814

Are you implying that a single hotseat run by the designer demonstrates that a scenario is a good simulation?

I think it's a pretty good sign, provided it was an honest test.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4139
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

But what about Waikiki Beach? You need a naval unit for your surfing. (Don't tell us you didn't surf, Ben.)

I'm not really much of a sportsman and I was even less of one when I was 17.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15065
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Zovs

My main point is that no one game system can be all for everything, eventually something in the system breaks down.

But is there any middle ground between "TOAW must remain as it has always been." and "be all for everything"? Is any topic expansion to be allowed at all?
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4139
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


I think it's a pretty good sign, provided it was an honest test.

I disagree.

According to legend, the game of Rugby was invented during a football match when a player decided to pick up the ball and run with instead of kicking it. This was obviously successful to him but you weren't "supposed" to do that in football (this being real football, not the American kind).

A player picking up your scenario may take a look at it and decide to do something he's not "supposed" to do, which in fact will completely turn the scenario on its head. Until you've run blind playtests (that is, with two players who are not the designer), you cannot call the scenario ready.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15065
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

A player picking up your scenario may take a look at it and decide to do something he's not "supposed" to do, which in fact will completely turn the scenario on its head. Until you've run blind playtests (that is, with two players who are not the designer), you cannot call the scenario ready.

So what? Isn't that what it should do? You don't want it to produce the same result regardless of player action. You only want the historical results if both sides were making the historical desisions and were equally matched. That's what that test was, more or less. But readers can take it however they like. For certain it modeled history very well in that test.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4139
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

But is there any middle ground between "TOAW must remain as it has always been." and "be all for everything"? Is any topic expansion to be allowed at all?

How about, fix the bugs before you do anything?

... ultimately Matrix owes us nothing and can take their products wherever they want. But please fix the bugs.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4139
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

So what? Isn't that what it should do? You don't want it to produce the same result regardless of player action.

No, but you want it to produce feasible results.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
cathar1244
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:16 am

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by cathar1244 »

@Ben

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I've messed around with Excel using a wargame map as the background and using graphical objects (the counters) to move around on the background, as a way of "digitizing" old paper wargames (or designing new games). Has potential, maybe.

Cheers
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4139
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

@Ben

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I've messed around with Excel using a wargame map as the background and using graphical objects (the counters) to move around on the background, as a way of "digitizing" old paper wargames (or designing new games). Has potential, maybe.

Cheers

Aren't there freeware products available for this- where you can drag and drop tiles around the map, roll dice etc., but the players are responsible for enforcing rules? I'm sure I've seen a couple.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15065
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

But is there any middle ground between "TOAW must remain as it has always been." and "be all for everything"? Is any topic expansion to be allowed at all?

How about, fix the bugs before you do anything?

... ultimately Matrix owes us nothing and can take their products wherever they want. But please fix the bugs.

What difference does it make when they are fixed so long as they are fixed before the release?

If every piddling thing has priority over new features, there will never be any new features. You can't jump back and forth between things as you code. Especialy for big items - like new features.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15065
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

So what? Isn't that what it should do? You don't want it to produce the same result regardless of player action.

No, but you want it to produce feasible results.

How do you know what's feasible if you take a non-historical path? It's the historical test that matters. That's the only test that can be correlated with history.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
cathar1244
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:16 am

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by cathar1244 »

@Ben

Mmm, there is a java-based one that is somewhat popular. Can't recall the name of it at the moment.

Cheers
biddrafter2
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:54 pm

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by biddrafter2 »

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

@Ben

Mmm, there is a java-based one that is somewhat popular. Can't recall the name of it at the moment.

Cheers

I've always wanted to mess with Triple A but have never had the time. https://triplea-game.org/
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4139
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

What difference does it make when they are fixed so long as they are fixed before the release?

The release has bugs in it.

I'm not a developer- but I'm nevertheless aware that developers are supposed to regularly regression test the software they're working on to iron out bugs as and when they arise- not later when you've finished doing the fun stuff.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4139
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

How do you know what's feasible if you take a non-historical path? It's the historical test that matters. That's the only test that can be correlated with history.

So if a scenario produces historical results from historical decisions, then ipso facto any other outcome is also a historical possibility?

This is a useful tool for proving all sorts of impossible things.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15065
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

What difference does it make when they are fixed so long as they are fixed before the release?

The release has bugs in it.

I'm not a developer- but I'm nevertheless aware that developers are supposed to regularly regression test the software they're working on to iron out bugs as and when they arise- not later when you've finished doing the fun stuff.

Sure. You fix the bugs that crop up in the thing you are working on as they come up. But legacy bugs that are in other parts of the code have to be fixed without that benefit (especially if they were made by Ralph!). There is no benefit to prioritizing them.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15065
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Message for Ralph Tricky

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

How do you know what's feasible if you take a non-historical path? It's the historical test that matters. That's the only test that can be correlated with history.

So if a scenario produces historical results from historical decisions, then ipso facto any other outcome is also a historical possibility?

This is a useful tool for proving all sorts of impossible things.

Ben, if you want to do more tests on it, feel free. I'm satisfied that it can reproduce history, given the historical inputs. What is feasible outside history is unknowable. Note that I do have a couple of tests done in that very vein: See the Early version test, and the Fully Motorized version test. [:D]
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
Post Reply

Return to “The Operational Art of War IV”