Need help to understand what I'm doing wrong in Surface Warfare Tutorial 1.5

[darkhelix]

I'm trying (again) to learn how to play CMO.
I'm stuck on the final Surface Warfare Tutorial 1.5.

- I have to escort an unarmed Fleet Oiler with two FFH 150 Anzac's and two MH-60R Seahawks, only one armed with torpedoes, the other has Hellfires.
- There appear to be about 4 enemy submarines in the channel I'm trying to cross, as well as a small fleet of enemy ships and aircraft.
- I run out of weapons on the Anzac's before I can detect and destroy all of the subs as the enemy subs fire so many cruise missiles at my Fleet Oiler.
- I have set up ASW Missions for the MH-60's but they are too slow to detect and destroy the enemy subs.

- My Anzac's are all operating passively and, even though I tell them to attack the subs when they're detected, they won't.
- I've checked EMCON settings, which are Tight, and the enemy has been identified as hostile.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[Gunner98]

Hello darkhelix

I have not played this scenario but from your comments I can propose the following:

1) It is a lot easer to shoot the archer instead of the arrows, and the MH-60 has superb radar. You you might be able to go hunting for the enemy ships. Just be cautious of their Air Defence. If the Anzacs have ASMs they can help once the enemy surface ships are detected.

2) You may want to adjust the WRA for your SAMs on the ships to shoot only 1 per incoming threat. Default is usually 2, but if they are low quality ASMs or come at you in dribs & drabs, 1 is often enough, and if you have good contact if that one misses your ships will have time to re-engage.

3) If the depth of the channel is shallow or there is a lot of ocean floor terrain, it may be better to go with Active sonar or at least active sonobouys

4) Is there a way to maneuver around the ambush zone? Unlikely if this is set up as a tutorial but trouble is always better when avoided.

5) Do the ANZACs have ASW weapons? Are they loaded? Are they within parameters? Not really sure why they wouldn't be engaging, but if you FFHs are close enough to engage with onboard weapons --- they are probably too close anyway

6) If the enemy knows you are there, why go passive?

Just some thoughts without knowing the scenario

B

[Schr75]

Hi darkhelix

I just finished the tutorial and here´s how I did it.

SPOILERS AHEAD!

After I finished the gunfire mission, I set the two frigates to staggered sprint and drift positions about 20 nm ahead of the HVU with all sensors on.
This way I would always have one frigate drifting at a time.

I soon detected an enemy sub and sank it with a Seahawk.

I then send my Seahawk with Hellfires on a recon mission, and I found a group of missile boats, which I attacked.
After my second attack I recovered my helicopter at the other frigate as it had another 8 Hellfires.

After my third attack they were all gone. They managed to launch 4 missiles, but out of 48 missiles that is getting of cheap.

Basically, keep all your sensors on. You are under surveillance from the start.
Control your fire. Your ESSM´s are great missiles, so only fire one at a time at missile targets.

I hope this helped.

Søren

[darkhelix]

Thanks for your tips @Gunner98, I will try them out later.

Re Point 1). I might have misunderstood you. My problem is not the enemy ships but the amount of 'hidden' submarines and their huge stock of missiles that outnumber (I suspect) what my Anzac's carry for defense.

Re Point 3), Only one of the MH60's has Sonobuoys and, while it dropped two in the Mission area that I created, that was it, and there were submarines firing at me from all over the place, making it impossible to cover all the areas with ASW Missions as I can only be in one place at a time.

Re Point 4), no alternative route I think as I am supposed to go through the channel where all the defenses are placed

Re Point 5) Yes, the Anzacs carry 32 RIM-162B ESSM's each and 18 MU-90 Torpedoes and I was amazed when the Anzac protecting the Fleet Oiler 'ran out of missiles' and stopped firing at the incoming missiles.

I'm getting really frustrated as I don't know if it's me or the Sim doing something wrong. I'm pretty sure it's me as I'm so new to the game although I do see some weird things happening such as Range Symbols not merging in/ out of groups even though the option is checked in the Settings.

Thanks for your help, I'll keep trying until I figure it out.

[darkhelix]

Thank you @Schr75 - I'll try that too!

How do you stagger Sprint and Drift between two frigates?

Maybe it was missile boats firing at me? I detected some submarines but never found the missile boats with my MH-60's.

[darkhelix]

I tried a few more times but I can't even detect the subs any more!
I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'll try again another day!

[darkhelix]

I managed to complete the mission and feel like I have really achieved something tonight!
I scored a Triumph which felt really good after trying so hard.

<SPOILER>
I had both Frigates sonar range overlapping slightly and positioned them 20nm ahead of the Fleet Oiler.
I set up an ASW coridoor ahead of the Group and had my MH60 with torpedos fly a Patrol there constantly.
I had to keep manually moving the coridoor to keep up with the group, I think there must be an easier way to do this.
I encountered a 3 ship fleet of missile launching frigates that were taken out with Harpoons effectively.
My frigates took out any air threats quickly.
About half way into the journey, I had to move my 2 frigates closer to the Fleet Oiler to provide cover from subs as a sub kept creeping up on me from behind and sinking the Oiler!
What a tough mission!

[thewood1]

The ref pts for the ASW patrol area can be made so the move with the group. Its fairly standard practice to do so. Look up relative reference points in the manual for an explanation.

[Rory Noonan]

ORIGINAL: Schr75

Hi darkhelix

I just finished the tutorial and here´s how I did it.

SPOILERS AHEAD!

After I finished the gunfire mission, I set the two frigates to staggered sprint and drift positions about 20 nm ahead of the HVU with all sensors on.
This way I would always have one frigate drifting at a time.

I soon detected an enemy sub and sank it with a Seahawk.

I then send my Seahawk with Hellfires on a recon mission, and I found a group of missile boats, which I attacked.
After my second attack I recovered my helicopter at the other frigate as it had another 8 Hellfires.

After my third attack they were all gone. They managed to launch 4 missiles, but out of 48 missiles that is getting of cheap.

Basically, keep all your sensors on. You are under surveillance from the start.
Control your fire. Your ESSM´s are great missiles, so only fire one at a time at missile targets.

I hope this helped.

Søren

This is the answer [:)]

[Rory Noonan]

ORIGINAL: darkhelix

I managed to complete the mission and feel like I have really achieved something tonight!
I scored a Triumph which felt really good after trying so hard.

<SPOILER>
I had both Frigates sonar range overlapping slightly and positioned them 20nm ahead of the Fleet Oiler.
I set up an ASW coridoor ahead of the Group and had my MH60 with torpedos fly a Patrol there constantly.
I had to keep manually moving the coridoor to keep up with the group, I think there must be an easier way to do this.
I encountered a 3 ship fleet of missile launching frigates that were taken out with Harpoons effectively.
My frigates took out any air threats quickly.
About half way into the journey, I had to move my 2 frigates closer to the Fleet Oiler to provide cover from subs as a sub kept creeping up on me from behind and sinking the Oiler!
What a tough mission!

This makes me really happy to read; it's exactly what I had in mind when I designed the tutorial series with a challenging conclusion. Thanks!

[ultradave]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

The ref pts for the ASW patrol area can be made so the move with the group. Its fairly standard practice to do so. Look up relative reference points in the manual for an explanation.

To give just a little more help, look at the "Missions + Ref Points" menu. 3rd block down is "Make ref. point relative to" and your choices are fixed bearing or rotating bearing.

You select all the points you want (say, a box of 4), select the menu choice, then select the unit you want them to link to, probably in this case one of your frigates. Fixed means that they will always be oriented the same way no matter the course changes, maybe in a case you know the threat is from the east. Rotating is probably what you want, so that when the frigate changes course, the ASW box stays in front of the frigate, no matter what course it changes to. As thewood1 mentions, the explanations are in the manual on how to manage these. Works like a charm.

You can have multiple groups of ref points linked to a unit too. For example, a CVN task force, with a CAP box, or two or three, and one or more ASW boxes for helicopters out front and flanking, all of them rotating or fixed position to the task force. Very powerful and handy thing to get the hang of.

Dave

[thewood1]

Or you can search relative in the manual...

pg 177

"Make Selected Ref Points Relative (Fixed Bearing) to… :
Selecting this and then selecting a unit/group will cause the
reference points to become relative to, or move with the unit/
group. One use of this is making an ASW patrol area for naval
aircraft that moves with the group of ships it’s intended to guard.
Make Selected Ref Points Relative (Rotating Bearing) to…
Similar to the above, only this will cause the reference points to
rotate with the units. So if the points are initially placed to the
north of the subject and it does a 180 degree bearing change,
fixed-bearing points will stay where they are while rotating
bearing points will move with the turn until they are to the south
of the subject"

pg 206

"Making Reference Points Relative: These properties give you
the ability to anchor reference points to moving surface unit
of your or a friendly side. These are set by selecting reference
points, choosing the property in the drop-down list and then
selecting the unit or group in the display they will be relative
to. This allows you to create mission(s) with defined areas that
move relative to a certain unit or its course, such as assigning any
aircraft to a mission that protects a moving surface unit (AAW,
ASW) or units.
Make selected Reference Points Relative (Fixed) bearing to… :
Reference points set to this maintain their position relative to the
selected unit or group. This is useful when you know the bearing
of a known threat and want to keep a patrol between it and the
selected unit regardless of the unit’s course. It is also useful for
missions where staying on station is important. Reference points
that are set to this always have an [f] in their name."

There's a few other mentions and tips on using it in the manual.

[acarney]

Thanks darkhelix for starting, as well as everyone that replied. This was by far the nastiest of the surface tutorials, but also the most enjoyable, after you get past the boring shore bombardment. My solution was different that darkhelix, but still handled those nasty missile-launching subs.

Learned a lot, including:

• Value of fixed relative reference points.
• Creating ASW missions for choppers.
• Unit coordination (in this case, the 2 frigates).
• Grouping probably has value, but in this tutorial, it was huge detriment.

Realize this is old thread, but it's a valuable one for anyone having trouble w. the Surface Tutorial 1.5

[WarFish]

Hi,

Spoiler and Question!
this topic seems to be a bit older, but anyway. I found out, that those incoming 4-pack Missiles come from Land based Missile Batterys (2 to 3), that are lurking near the coast of one of the northern isles and one southern isles. The third Battery (all 3 are not defended by AA) seems also to be on the 3. isle. But i totally fail to achive victory. After pelling of nearly 60 incoming Missiles i was out of defense weaponry and no CIWS system to cover. Could it be, that this mission is broken? Or do i just need to take more afford in it?

I swiped out the northern M.Battery with Hellfires , the southern with Harpoons and for the 3. Battery on the northern isle , my range is lagging and the refitting of the Seahawk takes 6 hours which are too much to wait for.

Any good ideas?

[Emp_Palpatine]

Hello there,

Sorry for the necro, but I saw that the most recent topic for this one redirected here...

So, I am struggling with this one.
As for the whole tutorial situation, of course I am a newcomer, with only a few hours and tutorials under my belt.

I tried what was advised here : the two FFH are somewhat ahead covering the supply ship. Conservative WRA regarding SAM usage.
I also set a ASW patrol area for the chopper.

As of today (several tries), my chopper fails to detect any of the subs... even as I roughly know where they are and order it to drop buoys and dipping sonar there. I thought these were supposed to be good subs finders?


So, currently, my problem is: fleet fails to detect the subs, get swarmed by dozens of missiles. SAMs run out. Fleet dies.
I add that the group fleet is order to go at most at cruise (for the supply ship) and the frigates speed and drift.

Is there something wrong, perhaps, with the EMCON? I use passive for the whole sonar things, as it is supposed to be more effecient at length.
I did some try with active, no joy.

I would like to shot the archers instead of the arrows, but can't find them. Thanks in advance for any advices!

[FrangibleCover]

This scenario is insanely difficult, even with replaying, and the instructions the player is given significantly decrease the likelihood of your success.

• The Seersucker batteries are, realistically, uncounterable before they have expended all of their ammunition - With a 110nmi range and the Hellfire Seahawk having 125nmi strike radius and miles of shoreline to search you can't possibly expect to find them before they fire. 36 shots, 55% pHit, that's 65 of your 64 ESSMs gone right away even on shoot-look-shoot doctrine settings. If you're following the instructions given, your picquet FFG will be unsupported and will die to this without a shadow of a chance. It's also worth noting that so far three different people in this thread have assumed they're facing SSGNs, having never found a single Seersucker. That's probably a good thing, because any effort you expend on empty Seersucker batteries is critically needed to kill Tarantuls.
• The Exocet strike is equally uncounterable, 8 more ESSMs gone and probably more like 12. By this point you have run out of ESSMs unless your dice are very hot.
• The Tarantuls are less bad because you can detect them and kill them before they shoot. However, it's up to one Seahawk to kill every single Tarantul, because even one is lethal and they outrange your Harpoons by a smidge. Again the picquet is killer, you can't fly the Seahawk on Stuart far enough to hit the Tarantuls before they hit Anzac, so you'll have to ignore the instructions of the tutorial. You don't actually need the Seahawk from Anzac to be on ASW duties at this point because the Victor is deafening and the Kobben is far away, it could be using its Hellfire Ns, but you have absolutely no way of knowing this.

Normally I'd say hide, but you physically can't: The MPA has you cold and the enemy strike missions are set to weapons free against surface targets so there's no amount of EMCON that will help. Taking your time does help, but again you have to know that you need to go slow at the start and fast at the end, which is not what the instructions tell you to do.

All of this is solvable with experience and repeated playing, but it's absolutely not a thing to throw at a new player, much less to present as an 'exam' to check that you understood the previous tutorials. It's more like a puzzle scenario where there's a very narrow path to victory and you are expected to fail multiple times before you succeed. I would recommend completely removing the Seersuckers from the scenario and probably also the Tigers.

[lumiere]

Play as scen author = opposing commander's least expected way:
(Please, Rory, do not lay minefield at southern passage when updating!)

safe.PNG (36.26 KiB) Viewed 1921 times

This is essentially adaption of Gunner's #4 advice.

Other "cheat" techniques:
-Do NOT move FFH Stuart to station RP as Message3 instructs. This action (trigger for event Message4) is chained with ReconUp event, which MPA support mission turns active and takeoff.
-If MPA did take off, as support missionRP are relative to Sirius, moving Sirius westward can fall MPA within SAM trap of your FFH. There are two MPAs to shoot down.

[Emp_Palpatine]

I beat it.

I had to find a replay on YouTube to understand what was wrong... I was not looking at the right threat as I thought the subs were the one spamming vampires and that I had yet to enter into the batteries range (that I expected mid to end course). I also expected these batteries to be way shorter range.

[spoiler]
So, I get from the video that the real threat was not the couple of subs but the missile batteries. So, as soon as the helicopters were ready, I sent the hellfire one on agressive recon towards the islands.
I destroy two of the batteries, great.
A third one still opens, not a huge deal as I have now enough missiles to counter it before the chopper can deal with it.
Sirius took one or two by the end, but because a Tarentul escaped and managed a lucky shot before I could sink it. Still won.
Echelonned ships in speed & drift + intermittent sonar allowed to deal easily with the subs.

[/spoiler]

A few considerations if this ever get updated:
- More intel for the player or at least some hint, as player is a newcomer and does not have all the reflexes. The scenario briefing & popus should entice him to use agressively the choppers as recon platforms and/or give some intels like "intel says there is (very) long range threat on the islands along the way).

- Currently, I am not sure this is winnable without resorting to gamey tactics like I used (going asap for the batteries I am not supposed to know are there), I would prefer feeling more honest in my victory!

[Emp_Palpatine]

Play as scen author = opposing commander's least expected way:
(Please, Rory, do not lay minefield at southern passage when updating!)
safe.PNG
This is essentially adaption of Gunner's #4 advice.

I thought about it.

Other "cheat" techniques:
-Do NOT move FFH Stuart to station RP as Message3 instructs. This action (trigger for event Message4) is chained with ReconUp event, which MPA support mission turns active and takeoff.

That's more or less what happened for me as I launched the hellfire helicopter when HMS Stuart was till way underway, destroying both batteries before they got updates by these pesky patrol planes.
Still feel gamey!