RtL tyronec (Sov) vs Xhoel (Axis).

[tyronec]

More units trashed in front of Lenningrad, won one defensive battle this turn but the rest were heavy losses.
There looks to be no prospect of defending a line South of the city where some of the hexes are open terrain, so build a city fort in Lenningrad and retreat across the river. It does seem very early at T7 to be forced back this far this quickly, am expecting to lose this game now.

[jlbhung]

What are the considerations leading to the earlier retreat? It seems that on the left side the terrains (rough and heavy forest) are good for defence, while on the right side there is a river between Sov and Ger troops.

[tyronec]

What are the considerations leading to the earlier retreat? It seems that on the left side the terrains (rough and heavy forest) are good for defence, while on the right side there is a river between Sov and Ger troops.

Trying to avoid being pocketed. While I could build a reasonable front line using the terrain as you describe I think Axis could punch a hole in it somewhere and trap some units. If the Soviets had a few more units available then would be happier making a stand further forwards.
Also their infantry are arriving and am avoiding fighting them as long as possible.

[tyronec]

No setbacks this turn, just a couple of attacks and the line is still in place.
Expect Axis are building up for a big push with their infantry, everything available is in place so will see what happens.

[tyronec]

As expected Axis launch their attack and it doesn't go well for the Soviets. Three divisions pocketed but am losing a lot from having units trashed by frontal attacks too.
Axis are a few turns ahead of schedule and expect they will cross the river in the next turn or two. Have the depots around Lenningrad well stocked up, they were full a couple of turns ago, so supplies may hold out but I fully expect Lenningrad to to be pocketed soon after Axis cross the river and then it will be the end.

[Beethoven1]

Things are looking pretty grim. Do you think things could have gone any better if you had defended more aggressively with being less willing to retreat, or do you think it is just impossible to defend against a good Germany player? Do Soviets just not have enough units (if Germany pockets the initial units properly) to adequately cover all the avenues of Axis attack? When I played this scenario as Soviets, it felt like I didn't have enough units, despite in my game being able to save a lot more units from turn 1 that Germany never encircled. Whereas in a Grand Campaign, Soviets can send extra units to Leningrad fairly easily, in the scenario you are stuck with the number of units the scenario provides.

[tyronec]

Things are looking pretty grim. Do you think things could have gone any better if you had defended more aggressively with being less willing to retreat, or do you think it is just impossible to defend against a good Germany player? Do Soviets just not have enough units (if Germany pockets the initial units properly) to adequately cover all the avenues of Axis attack? When I played this scenario as Soviets, it felt like I didn't have enough units, despite in my game being able to save a lot more units from turn 1 that Germany never encircled. Whereas in a Grand Campaign, Soviets can send extra units to Leningrad fairly easily, in the scenario you are stuck with the number of units the scenario provides.

I played this scenario quite a few times during testing, usually it ended up with Axis up around Lenningrad. Sometimes they were able to get across the river, sometimes not - but generally there was not enough time to seal off the city and assault it.
This game Axis have been ahead of schedule from T3 when they got right behind Pskov to nearly pocket a load of units, they did seal off a few the following turn. Since then the Soviets have not had the strength to build up a good in depth defensive line.

[tyronec]

Axis drive up the coast, isolating Lenningrad.
They could equally well have stormed the river and isolated Lenningrad in a few turns by taking Osinovets.
Well played Xhoel.

[tyronec]

Axis are winning all across the map, they should have taken every objective in a few turns. I wonder if the scenario will end early ?

[Seminole]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Axis are winning all across the map, they should have taken every objective in a few turns. I wonder if the scenario will end early ?

I had a WitW scenario where I captured the entirety of the allied force and the scenario didn’t end early, so I doubt it.

Clearly the Leningrad defense turns on not allowing a second pocket to remove Soviet map counters and prevent a rotating defense in depth from being developed around Luga. .

The Velikaya is fools gold as a defensive line, the underlying terrain matters more than the river. Must fight from the swamps and heavy woods wherever possible, while the axis needs to stick to tearing a path through the clear and light woods to snake the panzers forward and potentially into operational freedom.

[tyronec]

I had a WitW scenario where I captured the entirety of the allied force and the scenario didn’t end early, so I doubt it.

Clearly the Leningrad defense turns on not allowing a second pocket to remove Soviet map counters and prevent a rotating defense in depth from being developed around Luga. .

The Velikaya is fools gold as a defensive line, the underlying terrain matters more than the river. Must fight from the swamps and heavy woods wherever possible, while the axis needs to stick to tearing a path through the clear and light woods to snake the panzers forward and potentially into operational freedom.

I take a different view.

What happened on T3 in the game is Axis were able to get around the back of Pskov. They did so by attacking the three Blue units and then advancing along the Red arrow. The Soviet units were all trashed by the first attack so instead of retreating they routed away, with the result that the Axis Panzers were able to advance across the river with minimal Combat delay. If the Soviet units had been pushed back a hex instead of routing then the Axis advance would have been significantly slowed down. I could have positioned my units better but the margin of the combat wins suggests that it would have made little difference.

The point in defending the river line is not so much the defensive bonus from attackers crossing the river, it is the MP hit to Armor for moving across a river into a ZOC, but Axis were able to wreck the defence and clear the way for some units to get a good advance past the river line without any penalty.

There is a problem with what you suggest that the Soviets should have pulled back to rough terrain earlier. Pskov is a bottleneck with the lake guarding the right flank. Once Soviets pull back then they have to defend against possible Axis lines of advance. The Green one is the best, most open terrain and the fastest route to Lenningrad. The Blue one has more heavy woods but protects the double rail line, it is certainly viable for Axis (and has been used in previous games) once they get some infantry up. The yellow one is not great but it still has to be defended and it is protecting the double rail line to Lenningrad just north of Novogorod. The Soviets just don't have enough units on T4 to defend all of these.

For the Soviets to hold Lenningrad they need to be able to hold up the Axis Panzers at Pskov at least until the Axis infantry arrive. Otherwise Axis just get too far forwards too quickly and the defence is hopeless. It is the same in the '41 Campaign, Soviets need to be strong enough to fight a delaying action for the first third of the Summer in that they can hold off the Panzers and slowly retreat before the Axis infantry so that Axis cannot create a breakthrough with their infantry and follow up to make pockets with Panzers. But what we have seen here, and in the Campaign games that HLYA and I played, is that Axis can do serious damage with the Panzers before the infantry have even caught up.
My conclusion is that the game balance is off.

That is to take nothing away from Xhoel, he is achieving a HUGE victory by taking ALL of the objectives well ahead of schedule, which is quite an achievement.

[tyronec]

Just two objectives left...

[jlbhung]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

What happened on T3 in the game is Axis were able to get around the back of Pskov. They did so by attacking the three Blue units and then advancing along the Red arrow. The Soviet units were all trashed by the first attack so instead of retreating they routed away, with the result that the Axis Panzers were able to advance across the river with minimal Combat delay. If the Soviet units had been pushed back a hex instead of routing then the Axis advance would have been significantly slowed down. I could have positioned my units better but the margin of the combat wins suggests that it would have made little difference.

I have seen several AARs where the German went through the Sorot River instead of the Velikaya. The Soviet side has only limited number of combat-capable units in early turns. I am wondering whether there could be an effective way for the Soviet to defend both the Velikaya and Sorot rivers, with the aim to cause some delay to the German.

[Seminole]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

I take a different view.

What happened on T3 in the game is Axis were able to get around the back of Pskov. They did so by attacking the three Blue units and then advancing along the Red arrow.

That's why it is fool's gold. I'm happy to see a Russian player pile up counters on that river, I'm driving around and blasting their units on clear terrain where they don't stand a chance. Now I'm behind them and they have to move to get between me and Leningrad (if I didn't already pocket them in the leap), so I've strategically leveraged them off the river without firing a shot over it - and that's if they're smart. If they're not and they try to hold Pskov another week I'll bag the lot.

The point in defending the river line is not so much the defensive bonus from attackers crossing the river, it is the MP hit to Armor for moving across a river into a ZOC, but Axis were able to wreck the defence and clear the way for some units to get a good advance past the river line without any penalty.

That's great, if the Axis player is bullheaded enough to come right at your dug in river defenses.
But you shouldn't count on that against an experienced player. They're going to use the panzer's motor and find a different path.

There is a problem with what you suggest that the Soviets should have pulled back to rough terrain earlier. Pskov is a bottleneck with the lake guarding the right flank.

It isn't a bottleneck against a good player. It is a cauldron for Russian units to be pinned against that lake. Now you've lost map counters. Now you can't exert ZOC costs on every line of advance in depth and you grant the panzers operational freedom in what should be swamps and forests. You can't let those swamp and heavy woods hexes flip without extracting the MP cost of combat. The MP cost of bulling through the woods north of Pskov is much, much greater than the MP cost of breaching the Velikaya (if your opponent chose that worst course of action).

Once Soviets pull back then they have to defend against possible Axis lines of advance. The Green one is the best, most open terrain and the fastest route to Lenningrad. The Blue one has more heavy woods but protects the double rail line, it is certainly viable for Axis (and has been used in previous games) once they get some infantry up. The yellow one is not great but it still has to be defended and it is protecting the double rail line to Lenningrad just north of Novogorod. The Soviets just don't have enough units on T4 to defend all of these.

I hold the yellow line to be the best path of advance for the Germans because of the favorable terrain, the ability to cut supplies, and by going with the right hook most Soviet players will still feel compelled to hold the western approaches to Leningrad and thus spread themselves thinner and put many of their forces strategically out of position to contribute to the outcome.

For the Soviets to hold Lenningrad they need to be able to hold up the Axis Panzers at Pskov at least until the Axis infantry arrive. Otherwise Axis just get too far forwards too quickly and the defence is hopeless.

Russian has to fight from terrain that reduces their losses and the panzer combat power (swamps and heavy woods). Build plenty of depots to rotate the retreated/routed units onto so they can be used the following week and have combat power and not just be shells.
You have to screen the Velikaya and Sorot, but you can't try to hold them and you can't afford to give up any map counters so you can defend in depth and deny the panzers operational freedom and 'free' hex flipping against an experienced human. Since you can't really counter attack, you have to make the Germans player fight for their gains.

[tyronec]

Final VPs.
Axis needed 5:1 for a decisive victory, just their air losses that have held them below that.

Thanks for the game Xhoel, till next time !

[Firewire9452]

Tyronec, if you could replay T1/T2, how would you reposition your defense of Pskov? Anchor your defense on the west with pskov and pull back behind the river into better terrain as you move east? Have gaps in the front line to have asecond line with gaps?

If the scenario is imbalanced, what do you think the solution is? Another few infantry divisions available on T1 for the Soviets?

[tyronec]

Tyronec, if you could replay T1/T2, how would you reposition your defense of Pskov? Anchor your defense on the west with pskov and pull back behind the river into better terrain as you move east? Have gaps in the front line to have asecond line with gaps?

If the scenario is imbalanced, what do you think the solution is? Another few infantry divisions available on T1 for the Soviets?

T1 was good for me and got a lot of SUs out of the pockets plus delayed some Axis units reclosing them.
My mistake on T2 cost 3 divisions, and another two were pocketed on T3. The only way I can see to avoid this would be to have abandoned any defence of Pskov. Gaps are no good, Axis just advance through them and make pockets. You need double solid lines so that combat delay will slow them down.
I don't see any way in which I could have held onto Lenningrad in this game.

[Seminole]

I think you ran too far, too fast on turn 3 when he turned the flank of the Pskov defense. The Velikaya is more trap than defense against a skilled Axis player.

Also, I think people make a mistake not screening forward with security units and the other mobile small formations that the Russians have. You can’t let the panzers race around early flipping hexes without contending with ZOC costs and risking combat to burn their CPP and add fatigue. If they try to avoid them then you have the anchor points to cut them off from supplies and otherwise create havoc. Those sub-divisional units don’t need to be saved for later, they need to be speed bumps until your forces arrive.

I’m in my third RtL as the Axis and again on turn three I’ve avoided Pskov, crossed the Sorot and raced up the Sheldon valley to lake Ilmen.
The Soviets elected to continue holding Pskov so I created a large pocket on turn 4. They’re unlikely to have the requisite map counters to cover the front, and again risk allowing me operational freedom in the near turns.